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[Spoilers] Season 12 Discussion Thread


Tensor
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1 hour ago, Burberry said:

I agree, it is not the writers fault they did not get a wedding. The writers are simply writing what the character would do. 

Not the writers fault, then it's the production team as they the writers what want. The writers wrote the crap, so it is their fault as well!

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1 hour ago, Tensor said:

The Lenny wedding was in season 9, first episode.  The decision to go to Vegas was in season 8.   Their second wedding was in season 10, first episode.  

 

Actually, I don't think it did.  Leonard wanted to plan things out, as did Penny, at least they both did when they got engaged. 

If that is the case, then why bother with the second planned wedding?  That doesn't fit the character., 

To please him mom...

4 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Okay. I give you an example that could of been funny in the finale last year. Right in the middle of the I do’s Penny threw up all over on Amy and her dress ( I know some would liked that anyways). Penny was escorted off and they finished the i do’s. Amy and Sheldon left like they did. The tag could of been Penny feeling better and the gang wondering what happened. Someone could of suggested (Bernadette) that maybe she’s pregnant. The episode ends with Penny looking at a  pregnancy stick. The first episode started the same way and in 5 seconds it could be mentioned she wasn’t pregnant. I’m guessing many would not have liked an episode like that because it took away from the wedding. 

How is that funny?

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1 hour ago, chucky said:

Not the writers fault,

It is the writers fault that I have had hours and hours of mostly fun entertainment over the last 11 years. I expect if they gave me more exactly what I like the series would have crashed and burned early on. I tend to want to give the writers the thumbs up.

Edited by djsurrey
removed link (don't know how it was added)
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1 hour ago, Tensor said:

Messy, yes.  Disorganized, yes.  They also created her to be bad at her job, and somewhat naive.   But, somehow, her apartment became neater over the years.  She became good at her job, and very organized(a requirement to be good at her job, and somewhat of a drunk.    They also created Sheldon as an asexual, with no interest in women, or relationships, didn't they?   So how did he end up married?  

Can’t argue with that. But the writers and producers like shamy better and they gave the fans a fancier wedding unlike Lenny

Edited by Burberry
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1 minute ago, Sah said:

To please him mom...

Then why invite Leonard's dad, and her family?  She is supposed to be spur of the moment.  If all she wanted to do was please his mom, they could have had a second wedding without all the additional folks.   Yet, she planned things out.  Like,  inviting her family, inviting Leonard's dad, arranged for the area for the service.  All that is antithetical for someone who want's to do things on the spur of the moment.  

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Just now, Tensor said:

Then why invite Leonard's dad, and her family?  She is supposed to be spur of the moment.  If all she wanted to do was please his mom, they could have had a second wedding without all the additional folks.   Yet, she planned things out.  Like,  inviting her family, inviting Leonard's dad, arranged for the area for the service.  All that is antithetical for someone who want's to do things on the spur of the moment.  

It was a small family wedding. How much planning dod it take. They did it qiukly if I recall like a week later. Not months. That does not scream planned out to me. I just promised your mom a wedding redo. That to me says spur of the moment. Hey honey lets do it. Fitting to her personality.

Just now, Sah said:

It was a small family wedding. How much planning dod it take. They did it qiukly if I recall like a week later. Not months. That does not scream planned out to me. I just promised your mom a wedding redo. That to me says spur of the moment. Hey honey lets do it. Fitting to her personality.

She didnt even really talk to Leonard beforehand...

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35 minutes ago, Sah said:

It was a small family wedding. How much planning dod it take. They did it qiukly if I recall like a week later. Not months. That does not scream planned out to me. I just promised your mom a wedding redo. That to me says spur of the moment. Hey honey lets do it. Fitting to her personality.

You said, spur of the moment, something that requires no planning.  So, Leonard's dad and Penny's family just happen to show up in LA on that weekend, and they all happened to take a walk to the place where someone else set up the chairs and had a harp sitting there?  Is that what you're saying?

 

39 minutes ago, Burberry said:

Can‚Äôt argue with that. But the writers and producers like shamy better and they gave the fans a ‚Äúreal‚ÄĚ wedding unlike Lenny

Got news for you, Lenny and Howardette had real weddings, otherwise they wouldn't be married.  But it's good to see you can't argue my point.  

35 minutes ago, Sah said:

She didnt even really talk to Leonard beforehand...

Offering the wedding is spur of the moment. Actually talking to Leonard about it, flying her family in, having Leonard's dad come in, arranging for the area, having the chairs and other things set up and asking that Amy play the harp, prior to the wedding is all planning.  Which, according to you, Penny and Leonard don't do.  

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10 minutes ago, Tensor said:

LennyÔĽŅ and Howardette had real weddings, oÔĽŅtherwise theyÔĽŅ wÔĽŅouldn't be maÔĽŅrrieÔĽŅÔĽŅdÔĽŅ

I‚Äôm sorry I should have made that a bit simpler. By ‚Äúreal‚ÄĚ I mean more complicated weddings with a reception and a more fancy place. With more friends¬†

i will edit that now

Edited by Burberry

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9 minutes ago, Burberry said:

I‚Äôm sorry I should have made that a bit simpler. By ‚Äúreal‚ÄĚ I mean more complicated weddings with a reception and a more fancy place. With more friends¬†

i will edit that now

You didn't make is simpler, you made it more complicated.  Those are extraneous things, not the wedding.  Do you want to discuss the original point, the change of the characters over the years, or have you given up on that?  

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1 hour ago, Tensor said:

Do the writers control the character, or does the character control the writers?  

I think the viewers have a lot to do with it. There were many moans in this forum about Lenny's first wedding and its aftermath and plenty of demands for a redo. No doubt there was also reaction from elsewhere. I thought the redo was rushed and scrappy anyway but it struck me as at least a nod to the customers' reaction.

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2 hours ago, Tensor said:

Do the writers control the character, or does the character control the writers?  

In a perfect world, I would say it goes both ways. Once you establish a character's traits, for the sake of consistency you need to put yourself in their shoes and think; how would this person react in a given situation? If you make the character act in a way that is not believable for them, it can be very jarring for the reader or viewer and take away from the story.

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46 minutes ago, Tensor said:

You said, spur of the moment, something that requires no planning.  So, Leonard's dad and Penny's family just happen to show up in LA on that weekend, and they all happened to talk a walk to the place where someone else set up the chairs and had a harp sitting there?  Is that what you're saying?

 

Got news for you, Lenny and Howardette had real weddings, otherwise they wouldn't be married.  But it's good to see you can't argue my point.  

Offering the wedding is spur of the moment. Actually talking to Leonard about it, flying her family in, having Leonard's dad come in, arranging for the area, having the chairs and other things set up and asking that Amy play the harp, prior to the wedding is all planning.  Which, according to you, Penny and Leonard don't do.  

For all we know, Sheldon did all or most of that. We saw him doing his bit with the invitations. We don't know what else he did.

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11 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

For all we know, Sheldon did all or most of that. We saw him doing his bit with the invitations. We don't know what else he did.

Are you saying that Sheldon did all that without any input from Leonard and Penny?    The question was: did they do any planning.  Having Sheldon do the manual labor, still requires Leonard and Penny to tell him what needs to be done.    And, while I can see him contacting his mother to come to the wedding, I can't see him contacting Leonard's dad and Penny's parents, without their explicit approval.  

18 minutes ago, gsxdoug said:

In a perfect world, I would say it goes both ways. Once you establish a character's traits, for the sake of consistency you need to put yourself in their shoes and think; how would this person react in a given situation? If you make the character act in a way that is not believable for them, it can be very jarring for the reader or viewer and take away from the story.

 

Although I would tend to agree with you in it going both ways, the writers establishing the characters traits are, in effect, controlling what a character will do down the road (or specifically controlling what the character does, be changing one of the traits).  

In my fan fic, I try to keep the characters as close as possible to their characterization in the show.  That not always possible, especially in fan fic, where situations are written specifically to bring about a change that hasn't happened on the show.   My current one will require Leonard to act rather decisively, for an extended amount of time, which hasn't happened on the show. 

 But, the show writers have shown a propensity of changing the character, sometimes in a way that doesn't seem believable to me.  

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1 hour ago, gsxdoug said:

In a perfect world, I would say it goes both ways. Once you establish a character's traits, for the sake of consistency you need to put yourself in their shoes and think; how would this person react in a given situation? If you make the character act in a way that is not believable for them, it can be very jarring for the reader or viewer and take away from the story.

My thought is that the problem with the characters arise from the long run. The show needs grist for its mill. They don’t have that many variables to play with in their configuration. Fixed sets, no location shoots and small cast. It’s not huge production. They play in the writing.

So they tweek character over time. Sometimes they tweek by pushing harder at original traits - see Party Penny and her descent into drinking to cope with losing Leonard, which was in someway organic. Other things were thrown away because they lost utility. Leonard Baggins was a principled hero originally, but went away when they blew it up on the North Sea, two years after the fact, because they wanted a cliffhanger. Sheldon-PO got a complete remodel. His primary drive unit was totally replaced, or his ECU got re-chipped. Raj magically found his voice because they needed Chico, not Harpo. Howard the Perv became Mr Cleaver. Bernadette... well, total character change, ditz to bitch, it seems. And Amy had her lesbian phase, but that went away.

Everyone got normal. Maybe that’s why the show isn’t such an all out hoot anymore. That, and that the Shamy part of the show isn’t that funny. Chuckle funny, but not pants wetting funny.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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8 hours ago, Tensor said:

Could you explain why a fourth wedding story last year was just fine, but a third baby story this year is cause to be fed up, because there are too many baby stories?

Because they go through all of that pregnancy storyline and we never see a baby for one thing.

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3 hours ago, djsurrey said:

It is the writers fault that I have had hours and hours of mostly fun entertainment over the last 11 years. I expect if they gave me more exactly what I like the series would have crashed and burned early on. I tend to want to give the writers the thumbs up.

Apparently as usual we are on different sides of this issue. I wish you well, but I will 99,9% of the time have a different take.

4 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Because they go through all of that pregnancy storyline and we never see a baby for one thing.

Maybe because the cast don't want to deal with babies on the set!

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2 hours ago, Tensor said:

Are you saying that Sheldon did all that without any input from Leonard and Penny?    The question was: did they do any planning.  Having Sheldon do the manual labor, still requires Leonard and Penny to tell him what needs to be done.    And, while I can see him contacting his mother to come to the wedding, I can't see him contacting Leonard's dad and Penny's parents, without their explicit approval.  

 

Although I would tend to agree with you in it going both ways, the writers establishing the characters traits are, in effect, controlling what a character will do down the road (or specifically controlling what the character does, be changing one of the traits).  

In my fan fic, I try to keep the characters as close as possible to their characterization in the show.  That not always possible, especially in fan fic, where situations are written specifically to bring about a change that hasn't happened on the show.   My current one will require Leonard to act rather decisively, for an extended amount of time, which hasn't happened on the show. 

 But, the show writers have shown a propensity of changing the character, sometimes in a way that doesn't seem believable to me.  

This is why I kind of feel that after 12 years the actors should have some input into their characters and how they should be portrayed. I know many people feel that they just read the lines and take the direction but they live the characters and should be able to have some input.

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2 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

This is why I kind of feel that after 12 years the actors should have some input into their characters and how they should be portrayed. I know many people feel that they just read the lines and take the direction but they live the characters and should be able to have some input.

The actors, across the board, have publicly said, multiple times that they trust the writers.

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1 hour ago, Nogravitasatall said:

That, and that the Shamy part of the show isn’t that funny. Chuckle funny, but not pants wetting funny.

Actually Shamy is down right boring and predictable. Sheldon has lost his edge. He's a shell of his old self!

1 minute ago, vonmar said:

The actors, across the board, have publicly said, multiple times that they trust the writers.

What else are they going to say? You don't bite the hand that feeds you!

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2 minutes ago, vonmar said:

The actors, across the board, have publicly said, multiple times that they trust the writers.

Yes but that is the party line.  I am not saying they should have the influence to change things, but after 12 years they should be able to have some input into the way a character should be portrayed in a scene.

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1 minute ago, Mario D. said:

Yes but that is the party line.  I am not saying they should have the influence to change things, but after 12 years they should be able to have some input into the way a character should be portrayed in a scene.

Didn't Johnny basically cast Leonard's father?

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5 minutes ago, vonmar said:

The actors, across the board, have publicly said, multiple times that they trust the writers.

For their money I'd say I trusted my father. ( I once sent him for haddock and chips and he came back with Henry V and The Magic Flute because the queue in the video shop was shorter than the one in the chip shop. )

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