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[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread

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5 minutes ago, smartandbeautiful said:

Haha I don’t know why I’m so positive about this, but it feels good 😂

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Just a thought. 😀

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2 hours ago, bfm said:

 

I think episode 3 was a huge mistake.

The awkwardness and weird feeling of this episode screams one thing to me: They really had no inkling that there was a chance that Season 12 would be the end. If they thought there was a possibility that Jim or anyone else would decide not to enter into a contract renewal, how could they even consider something  like 12.3?  12.3 screams of a “kicking a subject down the road” situation. I mean was a sperm donation with Zack plot line always in the cards here?  The way this is being written and presented is just a complete mess....

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3 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

The awkwardness and weird feeling of this episode screams one thing to me: They really had no inkling that there was a chance that Season 12 would be the end. If they thought there was a possibility that Jim or anyone else would decide not to enter into a contract renewal, how could they even consider something  like 12.3?  12.3 screams of a “kicking a subject down the road” situation. I mean was a sperm donation with Zack plot line always in the cards here?  The way this is being written and presented is just a complete mess....

Really ? After however many times before over the years they'd gone through contact negotiations in the middle of a season ? Could be. I wouldn't put anything past them. If they were taking a thirteenth season for granted it strikes me they were being foolish. It would have been better to have asked for a three-year renewal during S10 if they wanted to be sure of a thirteenth. Yes it looks messy at present. It depends how it'll be resolved. ( Most likely Zack will produce one spermatazoon of his own that works and Leonard's contribution won't be needed after all. ) In the past they've said they write as if the end is not in sight until they know one way or the other, and if a season then turns out to be the last  they can wrap it up in one episode if necessary. Whenever they wrote this season's first few scripts, IMO they should have changed them before making the episode if the longevity of the series was going to make a difference. 

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5 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

....if a season then turns out to be the last  they can wrap it up in one episode if necessary.

I have always found this to be an arrogant statement that insults the history of the series and the dedication of long term fans.

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1 minute ago, hokie3457 said:

I have always found this to be an arrogant statement that insults the history of the series and the dedication of long term fans.

I took it to be a hint they had it written already : something along the  lines of a flash forward to Raj's party prediction.

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2 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

I took it to be a hint they had it written already : something along the  lines of a flash forward to Raj's party prediction.

I think the first 4 episodes were written prior to Jim's decision. So now it seems they are trying to work their way around the mess they made!

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24 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

I have always found this to be an arrogant statement that insults the history of the series and the dedication of long term fans.

 

15 minutes ago, chucky said:

I think the first 4 episodes were written prior to Jim's decision. So now it seems they are trying to work their way around the mess they made!

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1 hour ago, hokie3457 said:

The way this is being written and presented is just a complete mess....

DEFINITELY!

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1 hour ago, hokie3457 said:

The awkwardness and weird feeling of this episode screams one thing to me: They really had no inkling that there was a chance that Season 12 would be the end. If they thought there was a possibility that Jim or anyone else would decide not to enter into a contract renewal, how could they even consider something  like 12.3?  12.3 screams of a “kicking a subject down the road” situation. I mean was a sperm donation with Zack plot line always in the cards here?  The way this is being written and presented is just a complete mess....

I don't think they has a clue it was going to be the end, but they should have. No contract negotiations are ever a sure thing. As for anything always in the cards, no. I think they fly by the seat of their pants a lot of the time no matter what they say. But personally the ep wasn't as bad as I thought it would  be. I thought it would be worse.

 

1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

( Most likely Zack will produce one spermatazoon of his own that works and Leonard's contribution won't be needed after all. )

Agreed. That is the easy way out and I can see them taking the easy way out.

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The awkwardness and weird feeling of this episode screams one thing to me: They really had no inkling that there was a chance that Season 12 would be the end. If they thought there was a possibility that Jim or anyone else would decide not to enter into a contract renewal, how could they even consider something  like 12.3?  12.3 screams of a “kicking a subject down the road” situation. I mean was a sperm donation with Zack plot line always in the cards here?  The way this is being written and presented is just a complete mess....


Interesting. So the writers are trying to address the Penny not wanting to have children storyline rather more quickly than they thought. I hope this means Penny will change her mind before the end of the season.


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22 hours ago, bfm said:

As I said in the DT, I think there are two options regarding the working for Bernadette plot:

1. As opposed to her stopping Bernadette from hiring someone else, she did not stop Leonard from having someone else be the mother of his biological child, meaning she really doesn't want to have kids.

2. They are trying to hint that, just like in the case of the job, Penny said that she didn't want kids but in fact it's not that she really doesn't want them and she made the decision not to have them because she is nervous about it, afraid of the change in the life she has now, which she sees as good. This is among the writers' best options out of the corner they've written themselves into in 12×03 if they do decide to end with Lenny having kids or at least undecided about that (as opposed to most probably not having kids as is their state for now). Instead of going "oops, she changed her mind again" which is a worse representation of people who don't want kids* and can be countered by "well, who say she won't change her mind again?", they'd be saying she didn't really not want kids. I'm saying "among" the best options because IMO if they go with simply "nervous", and not some more serious fear/insecurities/self-doubt, then why didn't she just tell Leonard? Anyway, if this is the case they may have her stop Leonard when he's about to get the "stuff" out or about to hand it to Marissa (if they feel more whacky they may have Penny hand Marissa something else, like a gel or something, instead of Leonard's sperm, and if they're extra-extra-whacky they could do the whacky thing I jokingly suggested, which is have Penny give Marissa something else and take the sperm for herself XD and then Penny will get pregnant and Zack will accuse her of stealing the baby XD XD Again I'm just joking!).

*This option is ideal as a representation of people who don't want kids either, because it's a little like saying they're just nervous or scared of it, which is kind of supported with Bernadette's case. That's why I keep saying they wrote themselves into a corner with 12×03.

One thing that this reflects is that Penny is the deepest and most complex female character the show has produced - possible the deepest of either gender. This is a combination of excellent writing in previous seasons and KC's brilliant and deeply sympathetic acting. Penny still has unresolved issues because from c Season 8 or so they just dropped Penny and concentrated on Amy - who IMO has no depth, no inner life, no feelings. The writers' talents have been wasted. If the programme makers wanted to end the show with class, they'd drop all this Shamy dreck and concentrate on resolving Penny's issues. That could be great to watch. A scene I'd like to see in the finale is everyone - including Sheldon - acknowledging how much they owe to Penny for making their lives better.

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45 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

One thing that this reflects is that Penny is the deepest and most complex female character the show has produced - possible the deepest of either gender. This is a combination of excellent writing in previous seasons and KC's brilliant and deeply sympathetic acting. Penny still has unresolved issues because from c Season 8 or so they just dropped Penny and concentrated on Amy - who IMO has no depth, no inner life, no feelings. The writers' talents have been wasted. If the programme makers wanted to end the show with class, they'd drop all this Shamy dreck and concentrate on resolving Penny's issues. That could be great to watch. A scene I'd like to see in the finale is everyone - including Sheldon - acknowledging how much they owe to Penny for making their lives better.

I completely agree with everything in your post!

1 hour ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Agreed. That is the easy way out and I can see them taking the easy way out

When have the writers not taken the easy way?

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I may be the only one but this was much better than episode12x3 in regards to the baby situation. Certainly more hopeful and closer than to the mess that was created.

it seems To me Penny and Marissa are pretty similar. The big difference is Penny moved across from the guys 11+ years ago. The only thing we know about Marissa is she worked at a book store where she met Zack. Flash forward to now. Why do Zack and Marissa want a child? Obviously being on this thread you knew in general what was going to be asked. Maybe this is a guy thing but what I first noticed on the boat was Marissa is skinny. At least as skinny as Penny. If this was Penny on the boat on a sunny Saturday  wouldn’t she want to be laying out on the boat? Could you see Marissa doing that? My rambling point is one of Penny’s reasons not to get pregnant is it would ruin her figure? But isn’t Marissa willing to do that? On top of that she would be basically carrying another man’s baby. Obviously there is a lot of things we don’t know about Marissa so i’m most likely  way off here. Who knows though.

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2 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

I may be the only one but this was much better than episode12x3 in regards to the baby situation. Certainly more hopeful and closer than to the mess that was created.

it seems To me Penny and Marissa are pretty similar. The big difference is Penny moved across from the guys 11+ years ago. The only thing we know about Marissa is she worked at a book store where she met Zack. Flash forward to now. Why do Zack and Marissa want a child? Obviously being on this thread you knew in general what was going to be asked. Maybe this is a guy thing but what I first noticed on the boat was Marissa is skinny. At least as skinny as Penny. If this was Penny on the boat on a sunny Saturday  wouldn’t she want to be laying out on the boat? Could you see Marissa doing that? My rambling point is one of Penny’s reasons not to get pregnant is it would ruin her figure? But isn’t Marissa willing to do that? On top of that she would be basically carrying another man’s baby. Obviously there is a lot of things we don’t know about Marissa so i’m most likely  way off here. Who knows though.

I tend to agree!

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This episode just left me a little empty and asking “ Is this it?”.  Although Lenny had a couple good points in the episode, mostly I didn’t like Penny and felt sorry for Leonard.  Penny still acts like she is better than everyone, she doesn’t defend Leonard when Bernadette basically suggests she cheat on him and then she tries to control him about the donation thing till the end when she finally admits if it is her choice not to have kids it is his choice to donate his sperm somewhere else.  The writers have managed to mess up this whole subject in the show and I feel that no matter what the final outcome is it will be very disappointing.

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1 hour ago, Chrismo said:

The only thing we know about Marissa is she worked at a book store where she met Zack.

Dunno when I'll get to see this ep as E4 in the UK is still on repeats, but it's already surprised me: Zack met his wife in a book store?

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Just now, JohnPhD said:

Dunno when I'll get to see this ep as E4 in the UK is still on repeats, but it's already surprised me: Zack met his wife in a book store?

Yeah. He went in to use the bathroom.

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4 hours ago, chucky said:

I think the first 4 episodes were written prior to Jim's decision. So now it seems they are trying to work their way around the mess they made!

I think this is absolutely correct

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Just now, Mario D. said:

I think this is absolutely correct

Thank you! I do have my moments when the cob webs are swept away from the ol' noggin!

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2 hours ago, Chrismo said:

I may be the only one but this was much better than episode12x3 in regards to the baby situation. Certainly more hopeful and closer than to the mess that was created.

it seems To me Penny and Marissa are pretty similar. The big difference is Penny moved across from the guys 11+ years ago. The only thing we know about Marissa is she worked at a book store where she met Zack. Flash forward to now. Why do Zack and Marissa want a child? Obviously being on this thread you knew in general what was going to be asked. Maybe this is a guy thing but what I first noticed on the boat was Marissa is skinny. At least as skinny as Penny. If this was Penny on the boat on a sunny Saturday  wouldn’t she want to be laying out on the boat? Could you see Marissa doing that? My rambling point is one of Penny’s reasons not to get pregnant is it would ruin her figure? But isn’t Marissa willing to do that? On top of that she would be basically carrying another man’s baby. Obviously there is a lot of things we don’t know about Marissa so i’m most likely  way off here. Who knows though.

I think Penny is much smarter, sharper and funnier than Marissa. There may be other differences, we don't know Marissa enough to say. And why do they want kids? I'd have to say for the same reasons many want kids. And Marissa not caring about her figure has nothing to do with Penny, although the figure thing was just a joke about a year before the no kids decision, it wasn't given as a reason for it (there was no reason given for the sudden change of mind).

1 hour ago, SRAM said:

 The writers have managed to mess up this whole subject in the show and I feel that no matter what the final outcome is it will be very disappointing.

I sadly have to agree. There may be ways they can go that will have me much "happier"/less upset than others, but after everything they already did I can't see myself being able to say I was satisfied with the Lenny story of this season.

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1 hour ago, SRAM said:

The writers have managed to mess up this whole subject in the show and I feel that no matter what the final outcome is it will be very disappointing.

I gotta agree. No matter how it turns out, one of them will look bad. I guess the writers aren't married otherwise that would have written Penny defending her marriage to Bernadette! I take it that is what the writers call comedy, I call it something else. What happened to Leonard being the love of her life as she stated at the wedding in 10/1. I guess they went down the hill a bit since then!

Edited by chucky
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21 minutes ago, bfm said:

I think Penny is much smarter, sharper and funnier than Marissa. There may be other differences, we don't know Marissa enough to say. And why do they want kids? I'd have to say for the same reasons many want kids. And Marissa not caring about her figure has nothing to do with Penny, although the figure thing was just a joke about a year before the no kids decision, it wasn't given as a reason for it (there was no reason given for the sudden change of mind).

 

Is Penny the smart one after marrying Zack in that pretend wedding. Or all the years she believed she was going to be a movie star. They had the episode discussing how might their lives would be different without Sheldon. They had the scenario Penny married to Zack. Far fetched? All things considered wasn’t that feasible? As to employment waitress or book store worker? Not seeing the difference. The think is Penny 11 years ago has much more in common with Marissa than just Zack. Certainly more than A and B.

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12 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Is Penny the smart one after marrying Zack in that pretend wedding. Or all the years she believed she was going to be a movie star. They had the episode discussing how might their lives would be different without Sheldon. They had the scenario Penny married to Zack. Far fetched? All things considered wasn’t that feasible? As to employment waitress or book store worker? Not seeing the difference. The think is Penny 11 years ago has much more in common with Marissa than just Zack. Certainly more than A and B.

Street-smarts vs. book-smarts? 🙂

Explanation

index.jpg.73181d7b918e1983b4e723d16e057776.jpg

Edited by veejay
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