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[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread

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5 hours ago, hokie3457 said:

I have a lot of thoughts on this episode--mostly good and I'll share them later on the Lenny thread.  There was just one moment that got me in a certain way.  I have been going back and forth over it since it aired.  Penny had a look on her face for what seemed like a split second near the end of their part of the episode, just before the splendid and amazing hug.  With the look it appeared (to me) that she was saying to him "I'll give you anything.  Anything and everything. Exept for this".  Now again, I have some thinking to do and like I said, I've been going back and forth.  A lot.  And it was an amazing episode that showed us much of the wonderfulness of Penny and Leonard, but that one split second.  I need to watch it again.  Anyone with thoughts????

I see her face as full of regret, hurt and confusion, that is what gives me hope that either she is going to rethink her position or if an accident happens she will not be too upset, basically I think they are in a gray area now.

I am though going to be very pissed if Shamy gets pregnant while Lenny remain childless at the end of this series.

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23 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I'm glad Wyatt is proud of Penny and Leonard stuck up for her, but I didn't see evidence of her changing her mind. Yes, she regrets disappointing them and may change her mind, but I don't see it as a given.

I agree. I've a suggestion to make Penny is in her thirties now, and has a continuing relationship with all four parents. ( Not everyone is so fortunate, I know. ) I'm wondering whether the now-maturing Penny sees beyond any baby - broodiness,ticking biological clock or desire to raise the next generation, and realises if she starts having babies now there'll be sons or daughters in their twenties still needing her when she's over sixty. The older you get, if your parents are still alive and in your life, the more it dawns on you that there's a lifelong commitment involved in being somebody's parent. Penny's father is a farmer and yet he's taken a weekend off to come and see her.  When we grow up and leave home to begin our own adult  lives we don't really set our parents free, regardless of how much they let us know they've looked forward to it. :) Perhaps she feels being cool Aunt Penny really is enough. We weren't shown this side of Penny's thoughts until after she was dragged into Amy's parents' issues but for all we know it could have been growing since Mary and Beverly first fell out or even when she met Beverly the first time. We know Penny takes her time deciding whether to be committed or not. 

There's a term over here : 'The sandwich generation' which refers to adults in late middle age who not only have adult children ( inevitably causing them more worry than when they were babies ) but elderly parents or even grandparents in need of care and attention. 

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7 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

I agree. I've a suggestion to make Penny is in her thirties now, and has a continuing relationship with all four parents. ( Not everyone is so fortunate, I know. ) I'm wondering whether the now-maturing Penny sees beyond any baby - broodiness,ticking biological clock or desire to raise the next generation, and realises if she starts having babies now there'll be sons or daughters in their twenties still needing her when she's over sixty. The older you get, if your parents are still alive and in your life, the more it dawns on you that there's a lifelong commitment involved in being somebody's parent. Penny's father is a farmer and yet he's taken a weekend off to come and see her.  When we grow up and leave home to begin our own adult  lives we don't really set our parents free, regardless of how much they let us know they've looked forward to it. :) Perhaps she feels being cool Aunt Penny really is enough. We weren't shown this side of Penny's thoughts until after she was dragged into Amy's parents' issues but for all we know it could have been growing since Mary and Beverly first fell out or even when she met Beverly the first time. We know Penny takes her time deciding whether to be committed or not. 

There's a term over here : 'The sandwich generation' which refers to adults in late middle age who not only have adult children ( inevitably causing them more worry than when they were babies ) but elderly parents or even grandparents in need of care and attention. 

I feel her decision to not have children manifested it self into guilt. I Think it is likely its the classic Penny can't commit storyline. I Don't think Penny changed her mind at all. I just think the dynamics have shifted a bit. At first it was primarily Penny's decision, and they diddn't even discuss it. IT has now shifted to Leonard's point of view. And it is now more about his realization he well never be in the kids life. Leonard wants kids, because of his childhood was so cold and distant. And probably yearns for a connection, and further his spawn. Penny like you said probably feels "Cool Aunty Penny" is not enough. And Slugger seems a very clinical assement of how she views her childhood. Reminds me a bit of The Maternal Capicatance. Which showed subconciousley they have a deep seeded connection. And this episode showed it again. 

But like I Said I either think Penny well give birth in the penultimate episode. OR they well leave the idea a Gray Area. Leave it purposely open for the audience to interpret. 

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1 minute ago, 3ku11 said:

I feel her decision to not have children manifested it self into guilt. I Think it is likely its the classic Penny can't commit storyline. I Don't think Penny changed her mind at all. I just think the dynamics have shifted a bit. At first it was primarily Penny's decision, and they diddn't even discuss it. IT has now shifted to Leonard's point of view. And it is now more about his realization he well never be in the kids life. Leonard wants kids, because of his childhood was so cold and distant. And probably yearns for a connection, and further his spawn. Penny like you said probably feels "Cool Aunty Penny" is not enough. And Slugger seems a very clinical assement of how she views her childhood. Reminds me a bit of The Maternal Capicatance. Which showed subconciousley they have a deep seeded connection. And this episode showed it again. 

But like I Said I either think Penny well give birth in the penultimate episode. OR they well leave the idea a Gray Area. Leave it purposely open for the audience to interpret. 

More than likely

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Can you imagine how awful an episode the writers could create with a scene of Lenny sitting in their apartment while Shamy barges in, all excited, to tell them they are pregnant.  It would be like a slap in the face to Lenny fans, or Lorre dropping a piano on us.

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Can you imagine how awful an episode the writers could create with a scene of Lenny sitting in their apartment while Shamy barges in, all excited, to tell them they are pregnant.  It would be like a slap in the face to Lenny fans, or Lorre dropping a piano on us.


Forget the fans, that is a punch in the gut to Leonard - “Sheldon gets to be a Dad, not me?!?!WTF!?” And Penny? Just more guilt for not wanting kids while that emotionless robot in S4 she turned into a real girl gets to make her husband happy in ways she can’t bring herself to. I don’t care about the fans - we move on to new shows eventually - but the fictional characters I love? That sucks!


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12 hours ago, SRAM said:

I really got that impression too, about it being a gray area, because I saw several chances to reaffirm her no kids stance in that last scene with the three of them, but it seemed to me it was purposely avoided.  The main point I got from that last scene was that Wyatt still loved and was proud of Penny, Leonard was still madly in love with Penny, and Penny had a lot of regret in how she was hurting the two most important men in her life.

Think that was a true and believable assessment.

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5 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

Penny like you said probably feels "Cool Aunty Penny" is not enough.

I said she probably feels it IS enough. Promising siblingless Amy to be aunt to her children is a big commitment for anybody. Missy is too far away to carry much of that burden. I agree with you Penny may feel guilt. That's not unreasonable since she knows Leonard has been expecting to become a father one day. To crush that expectation is a big deal. I don't think guilt will be enough to make her think she should bring human beings into the world, though.

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5 hours ago, joyceraye said:

I agree. I've a suggestion to make Penny is in her thirties now, and has a continuing relationship with all four parents. ( Not everyone is so fortunate, I know. ) I'm wondering whether the now-maturing Penny sees beyond any baby - broodiness,ticking biological clock or desire to raise the next generation, and realises if she starts having babies now there'll be sons or daughters in their twenties still needing her when she's over sixty. The older you get, if your parents are still alive and in your life, the more it dawns on you that there's a lifelong commitment involved in being somebody's parent. Penny's father is a farmer and yet he's taken a weekend off to come and see her.  When we grow up and leave home to begin our own adult  lives we don't really set our parents free, regardless of how much they let us know they've looked forward to it. :) Perhaps she feels being cool Aunt Penny really is enough. We weren't shown this side of Penny's thoughts until after she was dragged into Amy's parents' issues but for all we know it could have been growing since Mary and Beverly first fell out or even when she met Beverly the first time. We know Penny takes her time deciding whether to be committed or not. 

There's a term over here : 'The sandwich generation' which refers to adults in late middle age who not only have adult children ( inevitably causing them more worry than when they were babies ) but elderly parents or even grandparents in need of care and attention. 

Interesting perspective

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The Big Bang Theory Recap: Baby Steps

I like to put this review of the latest episode from Vulture in here.
The selected section describes my thoughts on the subject quite well.

"It still feels like the right conclusion for this character to come to on this matter, but the storyline turns out to be a not-so-weird way for the Hofstadters to work through this major relationship issue that divides them. He wants kids; she doesn’t. He said he was okay with that, but the flirtation with the “Zack and Marissa thing,” as he puts it, says otherwise. Maybe there is no resolution, though, at least not one where everyone gets what they want, and definitely not without someone making a big compromise or sacrifice. But that, again, feels like a much more realistic place for the couple to be in, given how out of the blue (and weirdly) this “Zack and Marissa thing” became part of their lives."

As I said before, back into the "neutral zone". :scratchhead:

ob_14.gif.a461584484d31a8e3c59f51d85bf00f8.gif

Perhaps this time the violation of the neutral zone will take another direction.

ob_15.gif.bec2887419879c25f790fede742d4712.gif

Who knows. 🙂

Edited by veejay
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5 hours ago, veejay said:

The Big Bang Theory Recap: Baby Steps

I like to put this review of the latest episode from Vulture in here.
The selected section describes my thoughts on the subject quite well.

"It still feels like the right conclusion for this character to come to on this matter, but the storyline turns out to be a not-so-weird way for the Hofstadters to work through this major relationship issue that divides them. He wants kids; she doesn’t. He said he was okay with that, but the flirtation with the “Zack and Marissa thing,” as he puts it, says otherwise. Maybe there is no resolution, though, at least not one where everyone gets what they want, and definitely not without someone making a big compromise or sacrifice. But that, again, feels like a much more realistic place for the couple to be in, given how out of the blue (and weirdly) this “Zack and Marissa thing” became part of their lives."

As I said before, back into the "neutral zone". :scratchhead:

ob_14.gif.a461584484d31a8e3c59f51d85bf00f8.gif

Perhaps this time the violation of the neutral zone will take another direction.

ob_15.gif.bec2887419879c25f790fede742d4712.gif

Who knows. 🙂

Maybe no interruptions from Sheldon or Raj!

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13 hours ago, veejay said:

 

ob_15.gif.bec2887419879c25f790fede742d4712.gif

Who knows. 🙂

Okay in my mind I hear the following when I see this scene.

Penny:  Leonard I’ve changed my mind, I want to have your baby because........

Penny & Leonard:   Kissing sounds

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12 minutes ago, SRAM said:

Okay in my mind I hear the following when I see this scene.

Penny:  Leonard I’ve changed my mind, I want to have your baby because........

Penny & Leonard:   Kissing sounds

This sounds like an exellent idea to me.

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3 hours ago, Swedish Chef said:

This sounds like an exellent idea to me.

It's a damn good idea!

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9 hours ago, SRAM said:

Okay in my mind I hear the following when I see this scene.

Penny:  Leonard I’ve changed my mind, I want to have your baby because........

Penny & Leonard:   Kissing sounds

n_186.gif.4b7bcd4b51c6cfeb7e3addd8091bacdf.gif

😉

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17 minutes ago, chucky said:

Love your gifs!

thumbup8.gif.0a6f99ee8f465c3c4c39ea4c60722d5f.gif

😉

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26 minutes ago, veejay said:

thumbup8.gif.0a6f99ee8f465c3c4c39ea4c60722d5f.gif

😉

Oldies but goodies! Yea!!!  :cool:

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18 hours ago, SRAM said:

Okay in my mind I hear the following when I see this scene.

Penny:  Leonard I’ve changed my mind, I want to have your baby because........

Penny & Leonard:   Kissing sounds

If you want to read a terrific article on the Leonard/Penny/Baby drama go to screenrant.com article of Feb. 10 The writer Ana Dumaraog gives a very insightful view of the "Donation Oscillation" episode and then relates what is the crux of the issue. That maybe this will stir Penny & Leonard to finally sit down and openly talk about this issue instead of dancing around it. Penny has finally admitted she is torn by her decision and is disappointing the two best men in her life. As Penny contemplates her decision it will be more comfortable knowing that both her father and husband will support her. But the bigger issue remains on what is the primary driving force behind her stance on not wanting kids.  This is what tptb must come up with in the next episodes.

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31 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

If you want to read a terrific article on the Leonard/Penny/Baby drama go to screenrant.com article of Feb. 10 The writer Ana Dumaraog gives a very insightful view of the "Donation Oscillation" episode and then relates what is the crux of the issue. That maybe this will stir Penny & Leonard to finally sit down and openly talk about this issue instead of dancing around it. Penny has finally admitted she is torn by her decision and is disappointing the two best men in her life. As Penny contemplates her decision it will be more comfortable knowing that both her father and husband will support her. But the bigger issue remains on what is the primary driving force behind her stance on not wanting kids.  This is what tptb must come up with in the next episodes.

If the writers would actually show that in the last episodes in a serious, but above all funny way, I could personally say goodbye to the series. And no, I'm not going to add a "but" now.

n_468a.gif.eeb4463550e537407b3abf233b32c5e4.gif

Edited by veejay
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1 hour ago, veejay said:

If the writers would actually show that in the last episodes in a serious, but above all funny way, I could personally say goodbye to the series. And no, I'm not going to add a "but" now.

n_468a.gif.eeb4463550e537407b3abf233b32c5e4.gif

agreed!

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9 hours ago, chucky said:

agreed!

In the scene where Penny is in her lingerie and Leonard says "are you going to sleep like that" and Penny answers "do you want me to take it off" I wonder what Johnny might have said to her and if it will make the bloopers/gag reel

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5 hours ago, Mario D. said:

In the scene where Penny is in her lingerie and Leonard says "are you going to sleep like that" and Penny answers "do you want me to take it off" I wonder what Johnny might have said to her and if it will make the bloopers/gag reel

If it did make the blooper/gag reel, I'd love to watch it. It would be hilarious! 😊

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13 hours ago, Jonny said:

I'm fairly ambivalent on kids or no kids for them, I guess I ultimately care about the question 'Are they happy and on the same page about kids?' and that question needs to be answered whether they decide to have kids or not.  I don't think this storyline has provided that answer, I still got the view that Penny doesn't want children (and I respect this a ton, because not everyone wants to have children which is perfectly reasonable and should be absolutely respected), in fact it was even more reinforced to me that she doesn't and Leonard clearly does but he will give it up to stay with her.

I know people in real life whose relationships have ended over the decision to have or not to kids, it's a huge issue and if they are not on the same page or share similar feelings then they should consider the future of their relationship going forward. And even if there is a change, or some shift on the subject, having children for the wrong reasons is really not the way to go and that can end a relationship just as easily.

I generally don't post anymore since I've decided to stop watching this show, at least for the time being, but I wanted to respond to (more follow up) this post because it mentioned the thing that bothers me most about this whole no Lenny kids thing. I am quoting this in Dark Lenny to spare those who don't want to read such a negative post. Yup. Very negative here. You've been warned, please do not read if you don't like these kind of posts. I don't want to upset anyone.

Many things bother me about this plot/story/arc/whatever, but the "honor" for most bothering goes to what Jonny mentioned here: Leonard and Penny are NOT on the same page. To me, "The Donation Oscillation" showed it very clearly - the only thimg Penny mentioned as a reason to regret her decision was not wanting to disappoint her husband and her father, which means she doesn't want kids; Leonard was willing to donate sperm for the chance to pass his genes, and then felt a lot of pain at the thought of not raising the cold, which means he wants to raise kids, to be a father. They can make him change his mind, but I think with all that we've seen and with so little left, to me it would be laughable (and not in the way this show is supposed to be). Hokus Pocus Leonard doesn't want kids! Just like they did with Penny, Hokus Pocus she doesn't want kids! 

As it is, their fate seems somewhat tragic. Leonard has to give up on something he really wants in life in order to be with Penny. He will have her, which is wonderful for him, but he will have to watch his friends grow their children, go through things he wanted to go through but never will. This is a very big sacrifice. It may be romantic, but do we really need to see Leonard sacrificing in romance's sake again? We had seen this all along (also, this makes Penny seem like a trophy again, don't need this). Penny will have to live with guilt. I'm not on any way saying she should have kids out of guilt! Absolutely not! But she will live with guilt. 

The question that I cannot answer for the life of me is WHY. Why did the writers do that? I cannot think of a reason that would make me think this is worth it. It would be totally different if this were a sappy drama, but it isn't. It is supposed to be a feel-good sitcom. So why have characters get their hearts broken, and have to live the rest of their lives with such burden? Just because they had 2 pregnancy plots? Just because this is different? Juat to keep fans on edge? Just because some group if women who don't want kids suggested it in a letter? They probably did not consider Penny's previous stance and how it fits the character, just noticed she didn't have kids and saw it as an opportunity. IMO, the writers who are supposed to think of their characters, the story they've told and what their show is supposed to be and go by that instead of by external factors that IMO do not justify this by any means. Even if they have Penny change her mind I don't see why it would be worth it, and there will be other problems with that (i.e, the message that women who don't want kids change their minds eventually, like two characters in this show).

I also think they missed a chance to give Penny emotional growth, which would fit it being the last season. Thankfully they are giving her career development, but emotionally? She hasn't grown in a while. In fact, "The Donation Oscillation" had her regress. Instead they could have shown the former(?) commitment phobe make the ultimate commitment to someone and have and raise kids with him, something so intimate and important that will connect them for life, even if they got divorce (not saying that they will, just hypothetically; in this scenario Penny never changed her mind into not wanting kids).

I think 12×03 was the worst decision the writers have made in the entire show (well, at least for now, they still have time to top it). IMO, it is such a shame to have the show go like this.

I never thought I would decide to stop watching, but right now I feel that I've made the right decision. I used to like this show so much, but this season is just too much for me. At least they made saying goodbye much easier.

Edited by bfm
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2 hours ago, bfm said:

I never thought I would decide to stop watching, but right now I feel that I've made the right decision. I used to like this show so much, but this season is just too much for me. At least they made saying goodbye much easier.

Ultimately it's the only power a reader, a listener or a viewer has : withdraw support. Don't buy the next book, don't listen to the next episode of the serial or stop watching the TV series. I wonder if they'd have dared do this to poor Leonard before the final series ?

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