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[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread

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45 minutes ago, KripkeRules said:

I agree with what you are saying here, but I think what @Jonny said earlier would happen.   (OK, I don't have any evidence, just my gut feeling, that's all. )

This plot, especially with the fact they brought Penny's Dad back, reminds me what happened to Howardette on 9X07.  Bernie didn't want kids, Howard and Michael wanted, they talked, and a few episodes later, Bernie got pregnant. 

That being said, I actually hope the reason behind Penny not wanting kids is she wants to have a promotion or change her job or something.  Anything job-related for Penny is welcomed to me. 

If she decides she wants to have kids I hope it's not because of her dad or because she unintentionally got pregnant. I hope what happens in episode 3 is her having doubts that are revealed to be due to fears of not being a good enough parent, or having kids hurting her marriage. That would be more IC and can be worked on with Leonard's support.

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4 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

Guess we will just have to wait and see how this plays out.  It was said that Wyatt was not happy with hearing this. I think he will be the catalyst for Penny to re-think how she feels about having children.  Didn't she state in season 10 "The Locomotion Reverberation"  that Leonard and her were married two years and they were still the same as when they were dating.  That signaled to me she wanted more out of her marriage.....like having children and a house.  So why now she doesn't think she wants children. Someone wrote on the other thread that this was just a tease and will be addressed later in the season.  But as usual their continuity is off the charts.

That's because she used to want kids, with no hint of doubts. The writers now changed this, as they do. It's the same way Leonard could hide the secret boat kiss for two years and not seem guilty at all - it just didn't exist at the time.

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1 hour ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

They could still change their minds but I thought the powers that be made it very clear for months that they did not want any more pregnancy plots.

Yes but that was before the announcement that season 12 would be the final season

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11 minutes ago, bfm said:

That's because she used to want kids, with no hint of doubts.

I'm not sure about this. 

I can't recall all of the exact scenes she said something about kids, because I don't care about this, but I've always had this impression that Penny doesn't put "having kids" into her priority. I just remember she said something like "I want kids, sure, some day" in S.9, and "I want kids and more money and keeping thin" in S.11, so to me, that doesn't sound "no hint of doubts", if anything, it's more like "just saying". 

On the contrary, I can totally see her putting more effort into her job because a few episodes clearly showed us she was good at her job and wanted to do more better. So the comparison, to me, is very obvious. 

Again, I'm not that sure about the kids part, just my opinions. 

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9 minutes ago, KripkeRules said:

I'm not sure about this. 

I can't recall all of the exact scenes she said something about kids, because I don't care about this, but I've always had this impression that Penny doesn't put "having kids" into her priority. I just remember she said something like "I want kids, sure, some day" in S.9, and "I want kids and more money and keeping thin" in S.11, so to me, that doesn't sound "no hint of doubts", if anything, it's more like "just saying". 

On the contrary, I can totally see her putting more effort into her job because a few episodes clearly showed us she was good at her job and wanted to do more better. So the comparison, to me, is very obvious. 

Again, I'm not that sure about the kids part, just my opinions. 

She didn't want kids at these certain points but she did want them. There's saying "Sure, someday" with a dry tone and flat face and there's saying it with a smile and, well, a "yeah sure" tone. If Kaley was instructed to play Penny having some doubts about that I'm sure she would've done that differently.

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2 hours ago, bfm said:

She didn't want kids at these certain points but she did want them. There's saying "Sure, someday" with a dry tone and flat face and there's saying it with a smile and, well, a "yeah sure" tone. If Kaley was instructed to play Penny having some doubts about that I'm sure she would've done that differently.

Then again, Penny is also an actress so maybe she was simply faking it? lol

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56 minutes ago, April said:

Then again, Penny is also an actress so maybe she was simply faking it? lol

Highly doubt it. Her response was quick to a question she did not expect. Like Leonard not being guilty after the North Sea expedition, this having doubts about wanting kids is just something that didn't exist then and was written now. 

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13 minutes ago, bfm said:

Highly doubt it. Her response was quick to a question she did not expect.

Because actors never improvise?? Not that this is particularly hard to pull off to begin with...

13 minutes ago, bfm said:

Like Leonard not being guilty after the North Sea expedition, this having doubts about wanting kids is just something that didn't exist then and was written now. 

Ok, listen, I'm not arguing that they've always wanted Penny to come across anti-baby but merely that they didn't make her as baby crazy as you claim she was and imo it's not a huge step from "sure, maybe someday" to "weeeeellll, maybe not". It's not like she's the one picking out names and wondering how to raise her future kids or whatever.

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4 hours ago, April said:

Because actors never improvise?? Not that this is particularly hard to pull off to begin with...

Ok, listen, I'm not arguing that they've always wanted Penny to come across anti-baby but merely that they didn't make her as baby crazy as you claim she was and imo it's not a huge step from "sure, maybe someday" to "weeeeellll, maybe not". It's not like she's the one picking out names and wondering how to raise her future kids or whatever.

I'm not saying that she was baby crazy, I never said that. But she did want to have children, with no apparent doubt. It wasn't a "sure maybe someday" it was a "sure someday, I'm not in a rush". I would put money that the writers did not plan for her to have doubts when they wrote previous seasons. 

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I think it could be a bluff leading us down a false alley where we are led to believe Penny doesn’t want kids and therefore won’t get pregnant, when in fact she will. The fact it’s been worked into a plot line means the writers are thinking about it.


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4 minutes ago, bfm said:

I'm not saying that she was baby crazy, I never said that. But she did want to have children, with no apparent doubt. It wasn't a "sure maybe someday" it was a "sure? someday, I'm not in a rush". I would put money that the writers did not plan for her to have doubts when they wrote previous seasons. 

Okay, "baby crazy" was admittedly hyperbole on my part. What I meant was exactly your insistence that "she did want to have children, with no apparent doubt." If they wanted to make that clear they could have given her material where she seemed more engaged than "yeah sure but I want to stay thin and have money first!" (paraphrasing) cause that's like the most wishy washy nonsense to say when you're suuuuuper sure you want kids. It's not like there weren't enough episodes to bring up the baby topic where she could have said something more enthusiastic.

Again, my argument is not that the writers wanted to make obvious that she had doubt all along but simply that they never made her seem particularly enthusiastic about babies.

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2 minutes ago, April said:

Okay, "baby crazy" was admittedly hyperbole on my part. What I meant was exactly your insistence that "she did want to have children, with no apparent doubt." If they wanted to make that clear they could have given her material where she seemed more engaged than "yeah sure but I want to stay thin and have money first!" (paraphrasing) cause that's like the most wishy washy nonsense to say when you're suuuuuper sure you want kids. It's not like there weren't enough episodes to bring up the baby topic where she could have said something more enthusiastic.

Again, my argument is not that the writers wanted to make obvious that she had doubt all along but simply that they never made her seem particularly enthusiastic about babies.

But of course they wouldn't have her too enthusiastic because then they wouldn't have an excuse to put it off and they didn't want babies on set. 

I'm not saying she was super into babies, not everybody who has kids is super enthusiastic, but they made it appear that she does know she wanted them but wants to do that somewhat later, not never.

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1 minute ago, bfm said:

But of course they wouldn't have her too enthusiastic because then they wouldn't have an excuse to put it off and they didn't want babies on set. 

That's the art of "making shit up as you go along" - you gotta keep things as open as possible to keep your options available. But even then, we have the counter example of Shamy where it's made clear they want kids one day (and how many lol) but not exactly now. So you can do that if you want to and fudge a few years before actually getting to it.

1 minute ago, bfm said:

I'm not saying she was super into babies, not everybody who has kids is super enthusiastic, but they made it appear that she does know she wanted them but wants to do that somewhat later, not never.

Yeah, because nothing screams "I totally want to have kids" like having this meh attitude about it, eh? Again, see example above: If they wanted to they could easily have made her a bit more into the idea, that's all.

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6 minutes ago, April said:

That's the art of "making shit up as you go along" - you gotta keep things as open as possible to keep your options available. But even then, we have the counter example of Shamy where it's made clear they want kids one day (and how many lol) but not exactly now. So you can do that if you want to and fudge a few years before actually getting to it.

Yeah, because nothing screams "I totally want to have kids" like having this meh attitude about it, eh? Again, see example above: If they wanted to they could easily have made her a bit more into the idea, that's all.

Amy rejected Sheldon's courting laat year, wanting to put that off. And it's also easier to put off things with Shamy, I mean they only got married in S11 finale.

We will not agree on this, I don't see that as a meh attitude. There are many who want children "someday" and have them "someday". Not everyone who wants kids has a very concrete time and amount in mind and sometimes people also change their minds about the exact time and amount. 

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10 minutes ago, bfm said:

Amy rejected Sheldon's courting laat year, wanting to put that off. And it's also easier to put off things with Shamy, I mean they only got married in S11 finale.

I don't think getting married has anything to do with that. The point is that Amy rejected Sheldon's courting 2 years ago (yes, it's already been that long!) but we also have scenes of her suggesting procreating on Mars and more recently saying that she wants two kids and fighting with Leonard over baby names. So there's no doubt here.

They could have easily let Penny participate in the name/how many babies? discussion and make definite statements like "I want a girl named Alice!" or whatever - but the writers didn't. I think it was a conscious choice to keep Penny's feelings on the matter a bit more reserved and ambiguous.

10 minutes ago, bfm said:

We will not agree on this, I don't see that as a meh attitude. There are many who want children "someday" and have them "someday". Not everyone who wants kids has a very concrete time and amount in mind and sometimes people also change their minds about the exact time and amount. 

That's exactly my point. Heck, there are many who say they want children "someday" and then never have them for some reason or other. But you are the one who's claiming that Penny was absolutely dead set on having kids someday and as if her now ending up with "well, maybe not" is some massive mind change. I'm simply saying it's not that much of a leap.

(And again, I'd say Leonard suddenly being "ok fine" after already picking names and everything is the really weird part.)

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22 minutes ago, bfm said:

Amy rejected Sheldon's courting laat year, wanting to put that off. And it's also easier to put off things with Shamy, I mean they only got married in S11 finale.

We will not agree on this, I don't see that as a meh attitude. There are many who want children "someday" and have them "someday". Not everyone who wants kids has a very concrete time and amount in mind and sometimes people also change their minds about the exact time and amount. 

I agree. I believe Penny wants kids, just wants it later. She already was the first woman in the family not pregnant when she got married. :sungum:

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45 minutes ago, April said:

I don't think getting married has anything to do with that. The point is that Amy rejected Sheldon's courting 2 years ago (yes, it's already been that long!) but we also have scenes of her suggesting procreating on Mars and more recently saying that she wants two kids and fighting with Leonard over baby names. So there's no doubt here.

They could have easily let Penny participate in the name/how many babies? discussion and make definite statements like "I want a girl named Alice!" or whatever - but the writers didn't. I think it was a conscious choice to keep Penny's feelings on the matter a bit more reserved and ambiguous.

That's exactly my point. Heck, there are many who say they want children "someday" and then never have them for some reason or other. But you are the one who's claiming that Penny was absolutely dead set on having kids someday and as if her now ending up with "well, maybe not" is some massive mind change. I'm simply saying it's not that much of a leap.

(And again, I'd say Leonard suddenly being "ok fine" after already picking names and everything is the really weird part.)

Okay, first of all, please stop exaggerating my claims. When you do that of course you can refute them, but they are not my claims.

As for the Shamy, the 2 only came because Sheldon wanted 15. There was a point where Raj in that murder mystery said Lenny have 3 kids and Penny said she doesn't want to go through 3 pregnancies so there's "less than 3".

Yes they could have Penny participate but Penny is not one to plan all that far, I don't think she's all that "spontaneous" and "heat of the moment" as others do but she's not much of a planner either. 

And no that's not exactly your point. I guess you misunderstood. What I said was someone who doesn't think a concrete time in which to have kids or the eact amount they want but does generally want kids is not "wishy-whasy" or "meh" in my book. As I said, we will not agree on this because we take Penny's previous responses differently. 

And I definitely don't believe the writers conciously kept her more reserved to later have her say she may not want kids. They say they don't know what they will write a few episodes away, so three (or one in case they planned to finish this way and s10 could have been the last one) ahead? Nah. Maybe they kept her less enthusiastic because it would be harder to explain why they didn't have kids yet, maybe. But I highly doubt that they thought they would have her not wanting/doubting if she wants kids.

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3 minutes ago, bfm said:

Okay, first of all, please stop exaggerating my claims. When you do that of course you can refute them, but they are not my claims.

Well, you're doing the same with mine so there.

3 minutes ago, bfm said:

As for the Shamy, the 2 only came because Sheldon wanted 15. There was a point where Raj in that murder mystery said Lenny have 3 kids and Penny said she doesn't want to go through 3 pregnancies so there's "less than 3".

Yes they could have Penny participate but Penny is not one to plan all that far, I don't think she's all that "spontaneous" and "heat of the moment" as others do but she's not much of a planner either. 

And yet Lenny fans were eager about the potential of Lenny having sex on a fertility schedule and everything. Funny that.

3 minutes ago, bfm said:

And no that's not exactly your point. I guess you misunderstood. What I said was someone who doesn't think a concrete time in which to have kids or the eact amount they want but does generally want kids is not "wishy-whasy" or "meh" in my book. As I said, we will not agree on this because we take Penny's previous responses differently. 

You may as well be arguing semantics at this point. It's all about the degree to which Penny was sure she wanted kids. I say due to her lack of enthusiasm and putting it off over and over again it means to me that she wasn't all that into it and now having her end up with the decision to not have them after all is not that much of a leap.

And just to make it clear: This is not to argue whether or not they will actually have kids in the end. Anything can happen, like Penny changes her mind or there's an accident or whatever. And whether or not it will be a good story in the end is another issue.

3 minutes ago, bfm said:

And I definitely don't believe the writers conciously kept her more reserved to later have her say she may not want kids. They say they don't know what they will write a few episodes away, so three (or one in case they planned to finish this way and s10 could have been the last one) ahead? Nah. Maybe they kept her less enthusiastic because it would be harder to explain why they didn't have kids yet, maybe. But I highly doubt that they thought they would have her not wanting/doubting if she wants kids.

I already said they like to keep things ambiguous and make shit up as they go along. Not sure what makes you think I argue that this was all part of a grand plan?? I do think keeping Penny so wishy-washy about a lot of things (see also: wedding) is simply how the writers see her character. But that also means it keeps their options open to go one way or another.

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16 minutes ago, April said:

Well, you're doing the same with mine so there.

So call me out on it and explain if you think I misunderstood.

16 minutes ago, April said:

I already said they like to keep things ambiguous and make shit up as they go along. Not sure what makes you think I argue that this was all part of a grand plan?? I do think keeping Penny so wishy-washy about a lot of things (see also: wedding) is simply how the writers see her character. But that also means it keeps their options open to go one way or another.

Like this. I took your saying they conciously kept her "reserved" and "ambigous" as saying they did that to have the option of her not wanting kids. I misunderstood, at least to a certain extent, you explain, that's okay.

18 minutes ago, April said:

And yet Lenny fans were eager about the potential of Lenny having sex on a fertility schedule and everything. Funny that.

What does that have to do with anything? There's a difference between planning something for some years ahead and doing something to achieve a certain goal. Penny can wok to achieve goals, otherwise how would she learn and succeed at her job?

20 minutes ago, April said:

You may as well be arguing semantics at this point. It's all about the degree to which Penny was sure she wanted kids. I say due to her lack of enthusiasm and putting it off over and over again it means to me that she wasn't all that into it and now having her end up with the decision to not have them after all is not that much of a leap.

That is why I say we wil not agree. You see it one way, I see it another. That's okay.

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24 minutes ago, bfm said:

So call me out on it and explain if you think I misunderstood.

That's what I'm trying the whole time. lol

24 minutes ago, bfm said:

Like this. I took your saying they conciously kept her "reserved" and "ambigous" as saying they did that to have the option of her not wanting kids. I misunderstood, at least to a certain extent, you explain, that's okay.

Good.

24 minutes ago, bfm said:

What does that have to do with anything? There's a difference between planning something for some years ahead and doing something to achieve a certain goal. Penny can wok to achieve goals, otherwise how would she learn and succeed at her job?

Just a side observation. I do think it illustrates how ppl have a different take on how much of a planner Penny is or isn't, depending on who you ask. This whole fertility circus can involve a ton of planning (as opposed to: just not use protection and see what happens) and yet some ppl thought this is a fitting Lenny plot. And other ppl disagree, evidently.

Of course, the only take on the characters that matters in the end the one of the writers and they made it clear they think Lenny don't plan anything or have any concrete goal for their future so that's what you get.

24 minutes ago, bfm said:

That is why I say we wil not agree. You see it one way, I see it another. That's okay.

As always.

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4 hours ago, bfm said:

I never said that. But she did want to have children, with no apparent doubt. It wasn't a "sure maybe someday" it was a "sure? someday, I'm not in a rush".

It's not out of the realm of possibility for someone to "maybe someday" themselves right out of the park. The characters are all getting older now (Sheldon's school friend already has a child ready for college) and Penny has seen Bernie looking huge and having to go on bed rest. I have no idea what's going to happen but I think it can go either way.

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13 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

It's not out of the realm of possibility for someone to "maybe someday" themselves right out of the park. The characters are all getting older now (Sheldon's school friend already has a child ready for college) and Penny has seen Bernie looking huge and having to go on bed rest. I have no idea what's going to happen but I think it can go either way.

Just to clarify, there wasn't a "maybe" there.

And if we were to go by realistic criteria, then Amy and Sheldon should have started some years ago, or she should have frozen her eggs. But this is a show where we had a pregnancy that lasted about 11 months and one that was indicated by a pregnancy test a few days after being concieved so...

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16 minutes ago, bfm said:

Just to clarify, there wasn't a "maybe" there.

And if we were to go by realistic criteria, then Amy and Sheldon should have started some years ago, or she should have frozen her eggs. But this is a show where we had a pregnancy that lasted about 11 months and one that was indicated by a pregnancy test a few days after being concieved so...

We have writers with no imagination. There were ways around Melissa's real pregnancy. It was funny when she told Howard about the second pregnancy!

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2 hours ago, chucky said:

We have writers with no imagination. There were ways around Melissa's real pregnancy. It was funny when she told Howard about the second pregnancy!

You know after reading all these comments on a Penny pregnancy, I have come to the realization that we are brushing past a situation: What if Kaley gets pregnant IRL?  What happens with the story line then?  Something to think about

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25 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

You know after reading all these comments on a Penny pregnancy, I have come to the realization that we are brushing past a situation: What if Kaley gets pregnant IRL?  What happens with the story line then?  Something to think about

If Kaley gets pregnant IRL, that will force the writers to have Penny get pregnant. I've never understood TPTB's reasoning on pregnancies. They never show the babies anyway!

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