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[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread


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52 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

This was the worst storyline in this shows history. And their have been some doozies. It was an embarrasing, and woefully narrow minded idea. Leonard has always been the hero of the series. A True protagonist. Same Leonard who turned down a Drunk Penny in S1 The Middle Earth Paradigm. They really put Leonard down a stream without a paddle in this one. Which you could argue is an apt metaphor to what they have been doing to Lenny since S8. The fact that story idea made it out of the writers room, let alone onto TV (Lets be honest, all they did was create an imaginary tangent on the timeline. That was not their previousley. To counter the Shamy break up. To soften the blow for Sheldon). IS quite honestly humilating to say the least. And a real blight on this show. Could argue was the start of the writing declining. 

I can find no fault in your reasoning!

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I can actually live with the one off cheating bullshit more than the long running stupidity of the “he wore her down” line which yet again rears its ugly head in the next episode. As unrealistic and

It was about a year ago at this time and I just finished watching 11.24. The Shamy wedding. It was wonderful and marvelous. A really amazing television wedding. It was then that I told myself yes. The

The comparison between the Fowlers and Lenny was over the top and so was the shoe horned set up line from Bernadette. Not that I share everyone’s disgust for the accusation of them having nothing in c

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10 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

This was the worst storyline in this shows history. And their have been some doozies. It was an embarrasing, and woefully narrow minded idea. Leonard has always been the hero of the series. A True protagonist. Same Leonard who turned down a Drunk Penny in S1 The Middle Earth Paradigm. They really put Leonard down a stream without a paddle in this one. Which you could argue is an apt metaphor to what they have been doing to Lenny since S8. The fact that story idea made it out of the writers room, let alone onto TV (Lets be honest, all they did was create an imaginary tangent on the timeline. That was not their previousley. To counter the Shamy break up. To soften the blow for Sheldon). IS quite honestly humilating to say the least. And a real blight on this show. Could argue was the start of the writing declining. 

I felt it was desperation writing, they didn’t know what to write so they went with this to have something, it was a jump the shark moment, which does, to some extent, support your statement that it was the start of the decline in writing.  Sometimes I feel that when the writers get stuck they throw in a Lenny conflict situation to try and save themselves from admitting they have no ideas. I find it hard to understand, with all the married couples shows that have been on TV, how the production staff could not bring a couple people in, who have experience writing married couple comedy, to write some of the parts after the couples started getting married.

 

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52 minutes ago, SRAM said:

I felt it was desperation writing, they didn’t know what to write so they went with this to have something, it was a jump the shark moment, which does, to some extent, support your statement that it was the start of the decline in writing.  Sometimes I feel that when the writers get stuck they throw in a Lenny conflict situation to try and save themselves from admitting they have no ideas. I find it hard to understand, with all the married couples shows that have been on TV, how the production staff could not bring a couple people in, who have experience writing married couple comedy, to write some of the parts after the couples started getting married. 

o_389.gif.5e775a6b2cf1165401bc8f41a35e77b3.gif

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58 minutes ago, SRAM said:

I felt it was desperation writing, they didn’t know what to write so they went with this to have something, it was a jump the shark moment, which does, to some extent, support your statement that it was the start of the decline in writing.  Sometimes I feel that when the writers get stuck they throw in a Lenny conflict situation to try and save themselves from admitting they have no ideas. I find it hard to understand, with all the married couples shows that have been on TV, how the production staff could not bring a couple people in, who have experience writing married couple comedy, to write some of the parts after the couples started getting married.

 

It's not just the writers failing, but Steve Holland, Steve Molaro, Bill Prady and Chuck Lorre as well. Any one of them could have stopped that crap had the writers redo it properly!

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12 hours ago, SRAM said:

I’m glad the writers and TPTB are getting called out on this plot, since it was so bullshit and so OOC for Leonard.  The episode with him sitting on the couch and ignoring Penny was bad too, but not as bad as this episode.

But what good does it do now, really?

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1 hour ago, SRAM said:

I felt it was desperation writing, they didn’t know what to write so they went with this to have something, it was a jump the shark moment, which does, to some extent, support your statement that it was the start of the decline in writing.  Sometimes I feel that when the writers get stuck they throw in a Lenny conflict situation to try and save themselves from admitting they have no ideas. I find it hard to understand, with all the married couples shows that have been on TV, how the production staff could not bring a couple people in, who have experience writing married couple comedy, to write some of the parts after the couples started getting married.

 

Prior to Episode 8.24, I scoffed at TPTB saying they don't really plan ahead when writing/creating episodes.  I didn't buy it.  That changed here.  What they wanted to do (I think) was to have four plates spinning in the air at the same time.  They created the Shamy breakup; Raj and Emily teetering on the edge of ending their relationship; and Howard and Bernadette asking Stuart to leave their house and live on his own.  That left Leonard and Penny.  "What can we do with Leonard and Penny that would be a great season ender?" I think was the question around the writer's table....."I know!  I know!  What if we have them ready to elope and Leonard tells Penny he had an affair while he was away on the Hawking expidition to the North Sea??"  "What expidition?"  "You know, when Leonard was away for about 4 months?"  "Ohhhhh.....You mean when Sheldon and Penny had all that wonderful bonding time between seasons 6 and 7?"   "Yeah!  Yeah!  What if Leonard was, you know, doing the 'horizontal shuffle' with some coed assistant while he was away?"  "Wow!  Great idea!  But doesn't that go a little far?  I mean, wouldn't the fanbase hate us?"  "Okay.  How about he made-out with someone?  Penny could be totally freaked out!!!"  "Great!  Leonard can even ask if that ever happen with her and Penny can fully deny it!  Oh boy!  This is GREAT!"  

I will never forgive or forget this.  (I remember the words of someone out of the taping in the chatroom letting us know briefly what happened:  "Leonard cheated").  Ughhhhh....

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32 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

But what good does it do now, really?

Learn from their mistake. So it doesn’t appear they have. Now the show suggests that Penny physically abuses Leonard

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5 hours ago, SRAM said:

I felt it was desperation writing, they didn’t know what to write so they went with this to have something, it was a jump the shark moment, which does, to some extent, support your statement that it was the start of the decline in writing.  Sometimes I feel that when the writers get stuck they throw in a Lenny conflict situation to try and save themselves from admitting they have no ideas. I find it hard to understand, with all the married couples shows that have been on TV, how the production staff could not bring a couple people in, who have experience writing married couple comedy, to write some of the parts after the couples started getting married.

 

Agree the writing for Lenny started to decline with this season 8 finale.  Although, I have to say this was not the worst season finale.  Season 4 finale with Raj and Penny had to be the worst in the series. I don't think anyone liked it, viewers, critics and cast stated their displeasure. There even were near fights with the writers about this storyline.  But I think these writers are so comfortable in their positions (well not any more) that they cannot come up with good storylines for Lenny......only for Sheldon/Shamy.

4 hours ago, hokie3457 said:

Prior to Episode 8.24, I scoffed at TPTB saying they don't really plan ahead when writing/creating episodes.  I didn't buy it.  That changed here.  What they wanted to do (I think) was to have four plates spinning in the air at the same time.  They created the Shamy breakup; Raj and Emily teetering on the edge of ending their relationship; and Howard and Bernadette asking Stuart to leave their house and live on his own.  That left Leonard and Penny.  "What can we do with Leonard and Penny that would be a great season ender?" I think was the question around the writer's table....."I know!  I know!  What if we have them ready to elope and Leonard tells Penny he had an affair while he was away on the Hawking expidition to the North Sea??"  "What expidition?"  "You know, when Leonard was away for about 4 months?"  "Ohhhhh.....You mean when Sheldon and Penny had all that wonderful bonding time between seasons 6 and 7?"   "Yeah!  Yeah!  What if Leonard was, you know, doing the 'horizontal shuffle' with some coed assistant while he was away?"  "Wow!  Great idea!  But doesn't that go a little far?  I mean, wouldn't the fanbase hate us?"  "Okay.  How about he made-out with someone?  Penny could be totally freaked out!!!"  "Great!  Leonard can even ask if that ever happen with her and Penny can fully deny it!  Oh boy!  This is GREAT!"  

I will never forgive or forget this.  (I remember the words of someone out of the taping in the chatroom letting us know briefly what happened:  "Leonard cheated").  Ughhhhh....

Could not agree more.  And they had to squeeze the Shamy plot into the Season 9 premiere and couldn't have Penny and Leonard enjoy their wedding and not have anyone else enjoy it either.

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1 hour ago, Mario D. said:

And they had to squeeze the Shamy plot into the Season 9 premiere and couldn't have Penny and Leonard enjoy their wedding and not have anyone else enjoy it either

That was very frustrating indeed!

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I can actually live with the one off cheating bullshit more than the long running stupidity of the “he wore her down” line which yet again rears its ugly head in the next episode.

As unrealistic and out of nowhere as it was, and as cruel it was to even have it as a Lenny plot, they at least dropped in a couple of hints in 6.24 and 7.01 that were seen as stupid one liners at the time but were made prophetic by the jerk writers two seasons later.
“Leonard: Yeah. And I’m a little worried because things between us have been so great, and I’d hate to do anything that screws that up.
Penny: Oh, sweetie, if you’re gonna screw things up, it’s gonna be while you’re here, not while you’re away.”

“Penny: This is ridiculous. Why am I upset just because he’s off having a good time?

Sheldon: Well, perhaps you’re obsessively picturing him engaged in drunken coitus with another woman. Is that it? Did I get it right?”

They also set up Leonard as a slave to hormones with Plimpton and Latham and open to cheating with the Alice character. Not that this in any way suggests I think this was a plausible plot. It just wasn’t. But at least there was something to work with.

The “wore her down” crap, on the other hand, is a contradiction of the sum of the show.

He knocked her back in Season 1 in the Halloween episode, just simply suggested the season 1 finale date which she quickly accepted. This after him having sex with Leslie to show he wasn’t begging to be with her.

He had another serious relationship with Leslie and then Stephanie to show Penny he wasn’t desperate to be her and then later lusts after Alicia. Penny is the one who makes the move in the shot lime neck kiss scene. Penny is the one hiding her feelings at the end of Season 2 and is the one who throws herself at him to start Season 3.

It’s Penny who is desperate to make the sexual relationship work in episode 2. During that season, Leonard holds firm on the guitarist, upsets her over psychics but she forgives and relents not the other way around. Her doubts end the relationship, which he accepts and moves on with Plimpton and then far more seriously with Priya in Season 4.

In Season 4, Leonard becomes very committed to Priya and it’s Penny portrayed as not being able to let go emotionally, hardly Leonard wearing her down as he’s coitusing Priya, unless moving on with your life is wearing someone down in the minds of the writers.

In Season 5, his first move is on Alice, not Penny, which he openly discusses with Penny. The non date at the movies is strong willed Leonard not desperate to be back with you Leonard. Yes Leonard makes the move to reignite the relationship but his bug list shows his willingness to criticise without fear of losing her. Now if premature proposals and ILYs is wearing someone down, fine but they were both rejected so nah.

Season 6 has more examples of Penny doubts rather than Leonard wearing her down and when she finally accepts her love for him that’s all her. Leonard takes all the pressure off in the Valentine episode and hands all responsibility for decisions on marriage to Penny which he sticks to til the end.

In 7, he knocks back the drunk proposal, criticises her decision making and even when she finally proposes seriously in 7.23, he still asks if she’s sure.

Pennys doubts continue into Season 8 and Leonard continues to put no pressure on. In the evil finale, it is again Penny who decides and even when the writers throw in the cheating BS, the opposite of wearing down, she decides she still wants to marry.

If anything, it was Penny who wore Leonard down! He just waited until she accepted what she knew in her heart for so long. And I thought it was finally put to bed with the Penny drunk video on top of two beautiful wedding speeches. But no, here we are in the final season, 3 years into the marriage and we still get the “wore her down” line. Poor writing.




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100% We spend a lot of time talking about what could be good writing for Lenny, but what does bad writing look like? The current crop of writers. This is not specifically aimed at just writing for Lenny.

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2 hours ago, Tonstar17 said:

Indeed.Things just can't get any worse for Lenny after tptb ignored their engagement for a whole season! Ofcourse it can! emoji849.png

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That's what pisses me off the most, forgetting Lenny's engagement and spend an entire season planning and having shamy's wedding.

1 hour ago, Itwasdestined said:

Poor writing.

Poor, unimaginative writing then and continues to this day!

Edited by chucky
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10 hours ago, Itwasdestined said:

The “wore her down” crap, on the other hand, is a contradiction of the sum of the show.

He knocked her back in Season 1 in the Halloween episode, just simply suggested the season 1 finale date which she quickly accepted. This after him having sex with Leslie to show he wasn’t begging to be with her.

He had another serious relationship with Leslie and then Stephanie to show Penny he wasn’t desperate to be her and then later lusts after Alicia. Penny is the one who makes the move in the shot lime neck kiss scene. Penny is the one hiding her feelings at the end of Season 2 and is the one who throws herself at him to start Season 3.

It’s Penny who is desperate to make the sexual relationship work in episode 2. During that season, Leonard holds firm on the guitarist, upsets her over psychics but she forgives and relents not the other way around. Her doubts end the relationship, which he accepts and moves on with Plimpton and then far more seriously with Priya in Season 4.

In Season 4, Leonard becomes very committed to Priya and it’s Penny portrayed as not being able to let go emotionally, hardly Leonard wearing her down as he’s coitusing Priya, unless moving on with your life is wearing someone down in the minds of the writers.

In Season 5, his first move is on Alice, not Penny, which he openly discusses with Penny. The non date at the movies is strong willed Leonard not desperate to be back with you Leonard. Yes Leonard makes the move to reignite the relationship but his bug list shows his willingness to criticise without fear of losing her. Now if premature proposals and ILYs is wearing someone down, fine but they were both rejected so nah.

Season 6 has more examples of Penny doubts rather than Leonard wearing her down and when she finally accepts her love for him that’s all her. Leonard takes all the pressure off in the Valentine episode and hands all responsibility for decisions on marriage to Penny which he sticks to til the end.

In 7, he knocks back the drunk proposal, criticises her decision making and even when she finally proposes seriously in 7.23, he still asks if she’s sure.

Pennys doubts continue into Season 8 and Leonard continues to put no pressure on. In the evil finale, it is again Penny who decides and even when the writers throw in the cheating BS, the opposite of wearing down, she decides she still wants to marry.

If anything, it was Penny who wore Leonard down! He just waited until she accepted what she knew in her heart for so long. And I thought it was finally put to bed with the Penny drunk video on top of two beautiful wedding speeches. But no, here we are in the final season, 3 years into the marriage and we still get the “wore her down” line. Poor writing.




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Very well put! I agree.

What we have seen was Leonard being incredibly tolerant and patient, staying there waiting for the woman he loves to deal with her issues. Many men would have broken up with her along the way. Sure, a bed proposal is definitely not a good move, but her being unable to show commitment, not even living together, for as long as she was, would drive a partner away. Leonard was tolerant and accepting. 

Does anyone else have the feeling that Molaro is more involved this year? Last year things were being stirred in a much better direction after season 10. We could see their flow, them being in-sync, them enjoying each other. Now it seems like they're being stirred to S10/S10 territory again. "He wore her down", "They have nothing in common, nothing to talk about", "What are they doing together?"' "They do not belong together", "They don't get along" - This reeks Molaro to me. And I do remember Holland saying the ending is being discussed by Lorre, himself and MOLARO. Molaro is involved and Prady not so much. This is NOT a good formula for Lenny.

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35 minutes ago, bfm said:

Very well put! I agree.

What we have seen was Leonard being incredibly tolerant and patient, staying there waiting for the woman he loves to deal with her issues. Many men would have broken up with her along the way. Sure, a bed proposal is definitely not a good move, but her being unable to show commitment, not even living together, for as long as she was, would drive a partner away. Leonard was tolerant and accepting. 

Does anyone else have the feeling that Molaro is more involved this year? Last year things were being stirred in a much better direction after season 10. We could see their flow, them being in-sync, them enjoying each other. Now it seems like they're being stirred to S10/S10 territory again. "He wore her down", "They have nothing in common, nothing to talk about", "What are they doing together?"' "They do not belong together", "They don't get along" - This reeks Molaro to me. And I do remember Holland saying the ending is being discussed by Lorre, himself and MOLARO. Molaro is involved and Prady not so much. This is NOT a good formula for Lenny.

That's exactly how I see it, too.
In sober terms, this is not surprising, since the involvement with YS in terms of content obviously continues to progress (I hate that!). All this crap has nothing to do with the comedy I once learned to love and which still tries to catch me despite all that.

Here are a few visual insider glimpses of the sho(e)w-makers
from the S11 bonus videos

b06.gif.5526ab3de796bf145c498671f8f88cd7.gif 
(Lorre, Prady & Holland)

b07.gif.fbd7ecf8a662ed913fe36b5c75ace985.gif
(Molaro & Cendrowski, in front)

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1 minute ago, veejay said:

That's exactly how I see it, too.
In sober terms, this is not surprising, since the involvement with YS in terms of content obviously continues to progress (I hate that!). All this crap has nothing to do with the comedy I once learned to love and which still tries to catch me despite all that.

Here are a few visual insider glimpses of the sho(e)w-makers
from the S11 bonus videos

b06.gif.5526ab3de796bf145c498671f8f88cd7.gif 
(Lorre, Prady & Holland)

b07.gif.fbd7ecf8a662ed913fe36b5c75ace985.gif
(Molaro & Cendrowski, in front)

I hope for more Prady involvement and less Molaro involvement. Besides, Prady is a co-creator, it's weird to me that he's not in the ending talks. Could be his choice, but I hope he will be more involved.

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10 minutes ago, bfm said:

I hope for more Prady involvement and less Molaro involvement. Besides, Prady is a co-creator, it's weird to me that he's not in the ending talks. Could be his choice, but I hope he will be more involved.

Yes, but we don't know. But meanwhile I'm happy that this eternally unreflected back and forth of these "Story-Builder" will come to an end. So sad.

> Oops, I just looked at my avatar again. There's a little hope, it seems.

Edited by veejay
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8 minutes ago, veejay said:

Yes, but we don't know. But meanwhile I'm happy that this eternally unreflected back and forth of these "Story-Builder" will come to an end. So sad.

> Oops, I just looked at my avatar again. There's a little hope, it seems.

Maybe they will look at viewers' reactions more closely this time, and not just after the season (as it appears they did before). These reactions did seem to affect them, examples being the Lenny re-do and the change for Lenny between the second half of season 10 and season 11 (accompanied by comments fron them that made me believe they were responding to upset viewers). Right now I see Facebook and Youtube comments regarding Lenny that resemble those of season 10. I hope the writers will capture these signals that they may again be transmitting something other than what they intended.

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49 minutes ago, bfm said:

Maybe they will look at viewers' reactions more closely this time, and not just after the season (as it appears they did before). These reactions did seem to affect them, examples being the Lenny re-do and the change for Lenny between the second half of season 10 and season 11 (accompanied by comments fron them that made me believe they were responding to upset viewers). Right now I see Facebook and Youtube comments regarding Lenny that resemble those of season 10. I hope the writers will capture these signals that they may again be transmitting something other than what they intended.

It probably depends on who is rated by the authors and where external opinions are attained.
I don't know how to interpret the current decline in TV ratings. I don't think the whole rating system is up to date in the age of the Internet. Furthermore, it is probably also locally (US) limited and does not take into account all the numerous "foreign" fans and viewers (admittedly I have no advanced knowledge of the complex process).
All these current polls seem rather academic to me in view of the announced end of the series, as I am also quite sure that future hopes for YS continued success will be shattered.
So let's use the remaining time.... for some fun, hopefully. 😉

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8 minutes ago, veejay said:

It probably depends on who is rated by the authors and where external opinions are attained.
I don't know how to interpret the current decline in TV ratings. I don't think the whole rating system is up to date in the age of the Internet. Furthermore, it is probably also locally (US) limited and does not take into account all the numerous "foreign" fans and viewers (admittedly I have no advanced knowledge of the complex process).
All these current polls seem rather academic to me in view of the announced end of the series, as I am also quite sure that future hopes for YS continued success will be shattered.
So let's use the remaining time.... for some fun, hopefully. 😉

Here's hoping for fun times ahead!

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25 minutes ago, veejay said:

It probably depends on who is rated by the authors and where external opinions are attained.
I don't know how to interpret the current decline in TV ratings. I don't think the whole rating system is up to date in the age of the Internet. Furthermore, it is probably also locally (US) limited and does not take into account all the numerous "foreign" fans and viewers (admittedly I have no advanced knowledge of the complex process).
All these current polls seem rather academic to me in view of the announced end of the series, as I am also quite sure that future hopes for YS continued success will be shattered.
So let's use the remaining time.... for some fun, hopefully. 😉

CBS does have an option for viewers to write about their shows in the end of the season. I used it after season 10 (someone put a link here then). They may have gotten these responses there and maybe they were also affected by interviewers questioning the state of Lenny's marriage when season 10 approached its ending.

This year they won't have the after season mechanism. I'm also afraid critics may blindly praise them just because they present a woman not wanting kids. Not all critics pay much attention to the long history of the show, so they may just respond to the idea itself regardless of the way it (doesn't) fits the charaters and history and also the overall (lacking) balance of the show.

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1 hour ago, bfm said:

CBS does have an option for viewers to write about their shows in the end of the season. I used it after season 10 (someone put a link here then). They may have gotten these responses there and maybe they were also affected by interviewers questioning the state of Lenny's marriage when season 10 approached its ending.

1

I don't think any fan-submitted response gets back to the powers that be either that or the volume of views submitted around a similar viewpoint or theme isn't large enough to take notice.  Molaro (or was it Holland? can't remember) appeared to be genuinely stunned when Jessica Radloff from Glamour asked him a question about Leonard and Penny which hinted at some fan dissatisfaction with how those characters were being portrayed.

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1 minute ago, Jonny said:

I don't think any fan-submitted response gets back to the powers that be either that or the volume of views submitted around a similar viewpoint or theme isn't large enough to take notice.  Molaro (or was it Holland? can't remember) appeared to be genuinely stunned when Jessica Radloff from Glamour asked him a question about Leonard and Penny which hinted at some fan dissatisfaction with how those characters were being portrayed.

We don't know what they read. I think it was Lorre you're talking about and this is what I referred to mentioning interviewers. When Holland did interviews at the beginning of S11 I remember him saying things like how they want to protect or respect (or something to that effect) the characters that are beloved by many. The nonsense fighting stopped in season 11 and they started with Penny is mean/bullies Leonard jokes (an overreaction IMO, most of the times they take it too far). "He wore her down" jokes also mostly disappeared, until now, which is one of the things making me suspect Molaro is getting more involved again. In the S11 DVD extras he and Lorre talk about Lenny's good joking dynamic and how it suggests a deeper bond. Some of these things just rang familiar to me, I've read things like that in fans' comments in various media. I don't think these things got into their heads out of nowhere.

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