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[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread

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11 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

Penny should have a least told Leonard before they got married that she didn't want kids. Personally I think that was shitty on her part

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Um, neither Penny nor Leonard discussed any concrete re: children until this episode. It wasn't some horrible, sinister secret that she kept from him until she was ready to twist the knife in. I get that people are disappointed in the episode, I was too, but good grief. 

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Tbf neither party had time to discuss goals in their marriage and their future. Based on the fact they got spontaneously married. 
I have no problem with Leonard ringing Wyatt. He’s his father in law. And seeing he really has no real father figure in his life. I know we saw Alfred. But limited. So I think he was just looking for reassurance.
She had plenty of time to tell him they were engaged for a year

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Um, neither Penny nor Leonard discussed any concrete re: children until this episode. It wasn't some horrible, sinister secret that she kept from him until she was ready to twist the knife in. I get that people are disappointed in the episode, I was too, but good grief. 
She still should have the told him she didn't want kids that's really important to some people. To me she did keep a secret from Leonard



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9 minutes ago, legacy99 said:



She still should have the told him she didn't want kids that's really important to some people. To me she did keep a secret from Leonard

 

"Some people" obviously doesn't include Leonard since clearly neither of them have ever given it any thought beyond "yeah, sure, maybe someday" until tonight's episode. 

Also, what the heck are you talking about with secret keeping? This was more a recent contemplation in reaction to Bernadette than diabolical, drawn-out plot. 

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36 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Just my personal opinion but I think Leonard was a complete shit for calling Wyatt when he and Penny had not discussed the topic further.

I had no problem with it as apparently Penny didn't either, as she rented him the Batmobile!

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"Some people" obviously doesn't include Leonard since clearly neither of them have ever given it any thought beyond "yeah, sure, maybe someday" until tonight's episode. 
I think Leonard has thought about kids a lot during the series and for Penny to just now pop up about not wanting kids is completely unfair to expect him to just except this

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1 minute ago, DaisyJane said:

"Some people" obviously doesn't include Leonard since clearly neither of them have ever given it any thought beyond "yeah, sure, maybe someday" until tonight's episode. 

I believe it was the episode when Raj did the murder mystery with Stuart dead. I think Leonard mentioning he wanted 3 or 4 kids. The only thing Penny said she wasn’t putting her body through pregnancy that many times. To me that was an indication she was fine with kids.

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12 minutes ago, DaisyJane said:

I get that people are disappointed in the episode, I was too, but good grief. 

I wasn't disappointed at all. I had already come to grips that Holland had decided that there would be no more babies. So I expected the writers and Holland to throw some bumps in Lenny"s path to happiness!

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Just now, chucky said:

I wasn't disappointed at all. I had already come to grips that Holland had decided that there would be no more babies. So I expected the writers and Holland to throw some bumps in Lenny"s path to happiness!

I’m sorry this episode is no proof if they will or will not have kids.

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2 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

I think Leonard has thought about kids a lot during the series and for Penny to just now pop up about not wanting kids is completely unfair to expect him to just except this

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No, he hasn't, and she didn't expect him to just accept it. She clearly seemed pretty torn up about her recent revelation. What exactly do you propose? That she shuts her mouth about any possible doubts she might have and spit out kids in obedience to Leonard? 

5 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

I believe it was the episode when Raj did the murder mystery with Stuart dead. I think Leonard mentioning he wanted 3 or 4 kids. The only thing Penny said she wasn’t putting her body through pregnancy that many times. To me that was an indication she was fine with kids.

I would describe that as an aforementioned "yeah, sure, maybe someday" discussions that they've had in the past. 

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1 minute ago, DaisyJane said:

No, he hasn't, and she didn't expect him to just accept it. She clearly seemed pretty torn up about her recent revelation. What exactly do you propose? That she shuts her mouth about any possible doubts she might have and spit out kids in obedience to Leonard? 

I would describe that as an aforementioned "yeah, sure, maybe someday" discussions that they've had in the past. 

Certainly different than saying no kids. Also I think I said this but  I could tell Penny knew she was wrong. One was the batmobile and two she wasn’t mad about Leonard calling her father.

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I would describe that as an aforementioned "yeah, sure, maybe someday" discussions that they've had in the past. 
No but she could have told Leonard before they got married if she had doubts then Leonard could have decided to get married too her a not. They were engaged for a year she had plenty of time

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6 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

No but she could have told Leonard before they got married if she had doubts then Leonard could have decided to get married too her a not. They were engaged for a year she had plenty of time

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She has lead him on through the whole series so now dropping this announcement on him, I think Penny is the shit in this story.  She told him, when he asked her about thinking about kids, yeah sure sometime in the future, so now saying she doesn’t want them clearly makes her the bad player in this.

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14 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

No but she could have told Leonard before they got married if she had doubts then Leonard could have decided to get married too her a not. They were engaged for a year she had plenty of time

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Again, these doubts were depicted as being pretty recent, so I'm not sure what she could do beyond purchasing a time machine. This wasn't some diabolical plot to deprive him of offspring. 

14 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Certainly different than saying no kids. Also I think I said this but  I could tell Penny knew she was wrong. One was the batmobile and two she wasn’t mad about Leonard calling her father.

I'm not sure what either of those things have to do with the subject. Leonard wasn't right to get her father or Amy involved in something that does not concern them to get Penny to do what he wants. They're at an impasse. Penny has her doubts about wanting children, which seem pretty very newfound, and expressed those doubts to Leonard. She felt horribly guilty about it and expressed those doubts to Leonard, aware and empathetic of the fact that it will be a disappointment (she seemed a bit disappointed in herself and her current lack of desire). I really hate that they're doing this storyline but I'm not exactly sure how she's in the wrong for expressing this. What exactly is the alternative? 

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24 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

I’m sorry this episode is no proof if they will or will not have kids.

I know, I've accepted no children, but will be happily surprised if they do have kids!

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I'm not sure what either of those things have to do with the subject. Leonard wasn't right to get her father or Amy involved in something that does not concern them to get Penny to do what he wants. They're at an impasse. Penny has her doubts about wanting children, which seem pretty very newfound, and expressed those doubts to Leonard. She felt horribly guilty about it and expressed those doubts to Leonard, aware and empathetic of the fact that it will be a disappointment (she seemed a bit disappointed in herself and her current lack of desire). I really hate that they're doing this storyline but I'm not exactly sure how she's in the wrong for expressing this. What exactly is the alternative? 
I have a hard time believing if she had doubts now that she didn't have them earlier at some time

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10 minutes ago, DaisyJane said:

Again, these doubts were depicted as being pretty recent, so I'm not sure what she could do beyond purchasing a time machine. This wasn't some diabolical plot to deprive him of offspring. 

I'm not sure what either of those things have to do with the subject. Leonard wasn't right to get her father or Amy involved in something that does not concern them to get Penny to do what he wants. They're at an impasse. Penny has her doubts about wanting children, which seem pretty very newfound, and expressed those doubts to Leonard. She felt horribly guilty about it and expressed those doubts to Leonard, aware and empathetic of the fact that it will be a disappointment (she seemed a bit disappointed in herself and her current lack of desire). I really hate that they're doing this storyline but I'm not exactly sure how she's in the wrong for expressing this. What exactly is the alternative? 

This is no different than when the writers decided after 2 years to discuss the ship kiss. This is nothing more than another bump in the road for Lenny! The writers seem to take pleasure in the bumps for Lenny!

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9 minutes ago, legacy99 said:

I have a hard time believing if she had doubts now that she didn't have them earlier at some time

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There's no indication that she did and neither her or Leonard have ever talked, or perhaps even thought, about children beyond the very, very hypothetical, which has caught up to them. 

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Just now, legacy99 said:

I have a hard time believing if she had doubts now that she didn't have them earlier at some time

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I think the episode is more of a stall static. I think TPTB know people are taking about Lenny having kids. It’s like when they knew they had to give Penny a real job so people would stop talking. In tonight’s episode nothing that happened is carved in stone. If they really wanted to have a conversation about kids Wyatt’s phone call never would have happened. Obviously the phone call proved Leonard still wants kids. Penny at this point doesn’t. Now TPTB have discussed it on the show IMO nothing really changed so the show will move on,

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1 hour ago, 3ku11 said:

I have no problem with Leonard ringing Wyatt. He’s his father in law. And seeing he really has no real father figure in his life. I know we saw Alfred. But limited. So I think he was just looking for reassurance.

Indeed. He needed a mature man to talk to, one whose business it was to know about it. Sheldon was no use. It's a filthy trick to pull on  a man after all those years. Penny went from saying she was uncertain to insisting she didn't want children very quickly.

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1 hour ago, 3ku11 said:

Tbf neither party had time to discuss goals in their marriage and their future. Based on the fact they got spontaneously married. Also Penny’s always been a very free spirited, spontaneous person. Not a plan things out kinda person. That’s more Leonard. All their milestones have been spontaneous. First Date, first time they slept together. Even their wedding was a Vegas quickie. Maybe if they talked about these things. But that’s not Leonard and Penny.

I have no problem with Leonard ringing Wyatt. He’s his father in law. And seeing he really has no real father figure in his life. I know we saw Alfred. But limited. So I think he was just looking for reassurance.

Think they were both trying not to hurt each others feelings again in the beginning.  An old theme with them, that non-communication albatross.  When Leonard started to ask her the questions she was kind of coy about it and sort of had that look she was thinking about telling him she didn't want to have kids. I thought her conversation with Bernadette would be telling for her as she had the same feelings before marrying Howard.  But Penny seemed pretty adamant about it after speaking with her. When she finally asked Leonard he was taken aback at first because she never mentioned it before. He ran out of the apartment confused and that is probably why he spoke with Wyatt. Agree he should not have brought Wyatt into it but like you say he needed some reassurance.  In the end when he returned Penny did not seem to be mad that he told her father and I guess they made up in their own way. At least we got a touching scene there but Leonard sure seemed to have caved in again.  However, it ended with a temporary resolution and I feel this topic will come up again later in the season, especially from her father.   But summarizing this season so far has not been epic and it certainly looks like a Sheldon/Shamy season. The next two episodes look like Sheldon centric, so that makes the first four out of five are Sheldon centered. 

1 hour ago, Chrismo said:

I think the episode is more of a stall static. I think TPTB know people are taking about Lenny having kids. It’s like when they knew they had to give Penny a real job so people would stop talking. In tonight’s episode nothing that happened is carved in stone. If they really wanted to have a conversation about kids Wyatt’s phone call never would have happened. Obviously the phone call proved Leonard still wants kids. Penny at this point doesn’t. Now TPTB have discussed it on the show IMO nothing really changed so the show will move on,

Think you could be right

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29 minutes ago, Itwasdestined said:

My first reaction was “oh god, it’s official. After a slight pause in Season 11, we are so returning to the negative jokes about the Lenny relationship”. Strangely, Sheldon was the only one who didn’t hop on the old bandwagon.
Howard leads with the classic “ How are you married? Lenny follow with the United He Wore Me Down retort. Then Raj highlights their lack of knowledge about each other. Later at work, Raj chimes in with with his “ I know arranged marriages that end up happier - sorry Leonard I wasn’t referring to you. Then Bernie finishes with the sarcastic “you’ve got Leonard, what more can you need” quip. Amy threw in the weak Screw Leonard scream which I suppose wasn’t much but just added to the lovefest for Lenny. It was a Lorre story after all!

Then I forced out my “Everything will be OK, positive spin” side of me and agreed with Chrismo. This is not written in stone yet. And so begins another long winded analysis!

This is how the writers have written Leonard and Penny from the beginning. Leonard has his own dream in his head. Penny bottles it up. They don’t really ever discuss anything. Penny has doubts and reacts impulsively. Leonard is hurt. Penny feels bad. Leonard caves and leaves it up to Penny. Leonard stuffs up. Penny tried to make him feel better............... and eventually Penny comes around and gets over her doubts.

It’s how they wrote their early attempted relationship, their first long term but ultimately failed relationship, their rekindled relationship, their serious relationship and ILYs, their proposals, their engagement, their weddings, their marriage to each other (and Sheldon!) and now to me, how they’re going to write the parenthood phase. At some point, Leonard will “wear her down”( ugh!), she’ll have an epiphany like Holographic in the lab/post Serial Apeist sacking, you make me happy you stupid pop tart and realise her doubts are unfounded and she will embrace motherhood. Again just my feeling based on my take on the writing of this couple. If she doesn’t have kids, good for her

But.....

She didn’t want to rush into a relationship
She didn’t want to rush ILY
She didn’t want to rush Lenny 2.0
She didn’t want to rush moving in
She didn’t want to rush proposal
She didn’t want to rush engagement
She didn’t want to rush wedding plans
She didn’t want to rush living without Sheldon

And we all know how all that panned out.

Penny has always feared commitment ( and there’s no scarier, bigger commitment than parenthood) but she gets there in the end. That’s why I think the baby thing will change. Time will tell.


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Could not have expressed it any better!

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30 minutes ago, Itwasdestined said:

My first reaction was “oh god, it’s official. After a slight pause in Season 11, we are so returning to the negative jokes about the Lenny relationship”. Strangely, Sheldon was the only one who didn’t hop on the old bandwagon.
Howard leads with the classic “ How are you married? Lenny follow with the United He Wore Me Down retort. Then Raj highlights their lack of knowledge about each other. Later at work, Raj chimes in with with his “ I know arranged marriages that end up happier - sorry Leonard I wasn’t referring to you. Then Bernie finishes with the sarcastic “you’ve got Leonard, what more can you need” quip. Amy threw in the weak Screw Leonard scream which I suppose wasn’t much but just added to the lovefest for Lenny. It was a Lorre story after all!

Then I forced out my “Everything will be OK, positive spin” side of me and agreed with Chrismo. This is not written in stone yet. And so begins another long winded analysis!

This is how the writers have written Leonard and Penny from the beginning. Leonard has his own dream in his head. Penny bottles it up. They don’t really ever discuss anything. Penny has doubts and reacts impulsively. Leonard is hurt. Penny feels bad. Leonard caves and leaves it up to Penny. Leonard stuffs up. Penny tried to make him feel better............... and eventually Penny comes around and gets over her doubts.

It’s how they wrote their early attempted relationship, their first long term but ultimately failed relationship, their rekindled relationship, their serious relationship and ILYs, their proposals, their engagement, their weddings, their marriage to each other (and Sheldon!) and now to me, how they’re going to write the parenthood phase. At some point, Leonard will “wear her down”( ugh!), she’ll have an epiphany like Holographic in the lab/post Serial Apeist sacking, you make me happy you stupid pop tart and realise her doubts are unfounded and she will embrace motherhood. Again just my feeling based on my take on the writing of this couple. If she doesn’t have kids, good for her

But.....

She didn’t want to rush into a relationship
She didn’t want to rush ILY
She didn’t want to rush Lenny 2.0
She didn’t want to rush moving in
She didn’t want to rush proposal
She didn’t want to rush engagement
She didn’t want to rush wedding plans
She didn’t want to rush living without Sheldon

And we all know how all that panned out.

Penny has always feared commitment ( and there’s no scarier, bigger commitment than parenthood) but she gets there in the end. That’s why I think the baby thing will change. Time will tell.


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There's only one word to describe your post, eloquent! Totally agree! :sungum:

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As usual, a damn good analysis.  However, I have no intention of watching the writers ignore Lenny for most of the season, except, of course, to bring up the "He wore me down,  they have nothing in common, lack of knowledge about each other,  or any other negative comment the writers can come up with for Lenny.  While they parade more characters from Young Sheldon onto the show.  


Maybe Lorre and Molaro can shoehorn a young Penny visiting Texas as a young cheerleader at a Nebraska Texas football match that Sheldon attends with his Dad so she can make additional appearances on BBT as a Young Sheldon cast member.


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