[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread

[Mario D.]

6 hours ago, bfm said:

Maybe he will have imaginary kids in "Second Life" and then find out the mother is Leslie ><

 

And I think Leonard was totally right to be under the impression she did want kids. Twice she told him she wanted kids (and once a house). So they didn't talk about exactly when or how many but I really don't think that should have made him suspect she may change her mind. Shamy didn't talk time either and only talked about amount when it just came up when Bernadette was giving birth.

I keep going back to the episode when Amy and Penny took Bernadette for a night out and  "Patrick & Sponge Bob" had to babysit.  I just got the feeling when she said that her and Leonard were married two years and they were no further along in their marriage as when they were dating.  It signaled to me that she wanted more out of her marriage, like a baby or a house and was kind of envious of Bernadette.  Has she changed her mind about those things now and will she change her mind again?

[bfm]

6 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

I keep going back to the episode when Amy and Penny took Bernadette for a night out and  "Patrick & Sponge Bob" had to babysit.  I just got the feeling when she said that her and Leonard were married two years and they were no further along in their marriage as when they were dating.  It signaled to me that she wanted more out of her marriage, like a baby or a house and was kind of envious of Bernadette.  Has she changed her mind about those things now and will she change her mind again?

I think the only thing we can do is take what the writers wrote now - she doesn't want kids or a house. Some of us find this change not convincing (not the fact that there was a change, this can happen, but the way they did it) but that is what they did, that is how they work. I mean, if she blamed Leonard for them living with Sheldon when we saw her convincing Leonard to do that about a year before than everything is possible... Penny's mind works in mysterious ways*.

*And so do the minds of other TBBT characters, e.g., Sheldon learning the same lesson all the time. These writers are great in other aspect (come on, they have been on top for years and will have a 12 season run!) but not character psychology. 

[veejay]

25 minutes ago, bfm said:

I think the only thing we can do is take what the writers wrote now - she doesn't want kids or a house. Some of us find this change not convincing (not the fact that there was a change, this can happen, but the way they did it) but that is what they did, that is how they work. I mean, if she blamed Leonard for them living with Sheldon when we saw her convincing Leonard to do that about a year before than everything is possible... Penny's mind works in mysterious ways*.

*And so do the minds of other TBBT characters, e.g., Sheldon learning the same lesson all the time. These writers are great in other aspect (come on, they have been on top for years and will have a 12 season run!) but not character psychology. 

Yeah. It's always hard to tinker the stories the right way. 😀

[chucky]

1 hour ago, bfm said:

When it's between being with Penny without having kids and being with another woman and having kids with her, his choice is Penny.

So, so true! Penny's his whole life, as he is hers!

[SRAM]

Leonard was right in the first episode, they are like the Fowlers, Penny controls the marriage, has final say over all decisions and is a bully.  She is really not a supportive person to him, her answer to Sheldon stealing his work was buy him a drone not help him confront Sheldon like Bernadette did with Howard over the parking spot problem.  Now just rent the Batmobile instead of actually coming up with a compromise with him about kids because after all it is all about her wants.

[veejay]

9 minutes ago, SRAM said:

Leonard was right in the first episode, they are like the Fowlers, Penny controls the marriage, has final say over all decisions and is a bully.  She is really not a supportive person to him, her answer to Sheldon stealing his work was buy him a drone not help him confront Sheldon like Bernadette did with Howard over the parking spot problem.  Now just rent the Batmobile instead of actually coming up with a compromise with him about kids because after all it is all about her wants.

[Tonstar17]

Leonard was right in the first episode, they are like the Fowlers, Penny controls the marriage, has final say over all decisions and is a bully.  She is really not a supportive person to him, her answer to Sheldon stealing his work was buy him a drone not help him confront Sheldon like Bernadette did with Howard over the parking spot problem.  Now just rent the Batmobile instead of actually coming up with a compromise with him about kids because after all it is all about her wants.

What gets me is that Leonard is been called all the names under the sun but penny gets off Scott free because she is a women and not one should force her to have kids if she doesn't want to. I get that. But what about Leonard feelings that are not considered. I have never know Leonard to stomp out of 4a like he did. He must have been shocked, devastated and broken, but no, his feelings doesn't means nothing to some, he is just a dick for calling Wyatt. Leonard showed great courage by putting it all aside for Penny. Even thought he is fine with it doesn't mean he is happy with the situation. This will bite at him for years to come and he may even end up resenting Penny.

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[chucky]

15 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

What gets me is that Leonard is been called all the names under the sun but penny gets off Scott free because she is a women and not one should force her to have kids if she doesn't want to. I get that. But what about Leonard feelings that are not considered. I have never know Leonard to stomp out of 4a like he did. He must have been shocked, devastated and broken, but no, his feelings doesn't means nothing to some, he is just a dick for calling Wyatt. Leonard showed great courage by putting it all aside for Penny. Even thought he is fine with it doesn't mean he is happy with the situation. This will bite at him for years to come and he may even end up resenting Penny.

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Completely agree!

[bfm]

1 hour ago, SRAM said:

Leonard was right in the first episode, they are like the Fowlers, Penny controls the marriage, has final say over all decisions and is a bully.  She is really not a supportive person to him, her answer to Sheldon stealing his work was buy him a drone not help him confront Sheldon like Bernadette did with Howard over the parking spot problem.  Now just rent the Batmobile instead of actually coming up with a compromise with him about kids because after all it is all about her wants.

You can't compromise about this, you can't have half a child or have a child when you want and not have them when you don't.

20 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

What gets me is that Leonard is been called all the names under the sun but penny gets off Scott free because she is a women and not one should force her to have kids if she doesn't want to. I get that. But what about Leonard feelings that are not considered. I have never know Leonard to stomp out of 4a like he did. He must have been shocked, devastated and broken, but no, his feelings doesn't means nothing to some, he is just a dick for calling Wyatt. Leonard showed great courage by putting it all aside for Penny. Even thought he is fine with it doesn't mean he is happy with the situation. This will bite at him for years to come and he may even end up resenting Penny.

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One person wrote, I think it was on Facebook, that they thought that if the situation was reversed Leonard would have been called an abuser. I don't think that's true, I think people wouldn't want him to have kids if he didn't want to the same way it goes for Penny. However, I do think people may have been harsher if it were him. Gender inequality works both ways.

As for the point of your post... Yes his feelings de matter but you can't force someone who doesn't want to have kids to have them, that is very unhealthy for all parties and I don't think Leonard would want that. He wouldn't want Penny to have children she didn't/doesn't want and he'd sure wouldn't want his children to have a mother that doesn't want them, being a person who never really recieved any love from his mother (just some gestures maybe here and there that suggest some kind of affection, maybe). His options are learn to accept this, leave her, or co-parent with another woman if Penny agrees. He's choosing the first, that's his choice. 

As for calling Wyatt, I think it's not okay at all, but I'm willing to believe he did that when he was very upset and didn't think straight.

The fault is ultimately in th writers, not in Penny. They're the ones who keep throwing stuff at his face, making him always be the one who has to compromise and sacrifice. 

<Courtesy of "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend*>

*Originally refers to the acutal Big Bang

Edited October 6, 2018 by bfm

[Tonstar17]

Was there a scene where Leonard spoke to Wyatt. We don't know what Leonard said to him
For all we know he might have just asked him if he knew penny didn't want kids and just spoke to him how he felt. I'm sure he didn't ask Wyatt to call penny and force her to change her mind. At the moment its all speculations what Leonard may have or not said. I also think if it was Leonard that didn't want kids, he would still be the fall guy because he never told penny. In any scenario Leonard will be the bad guy that never catches a break. I know tptb are at fault here, your take on penny having a kid and not paying attention to them or little gestures here and there is irrelevant. She can just leave and I'm sure Leonard can bring up the kid by himself. There are lots of women who wanted kids and once they had them realised they didn't want kids after all and the man ends up bringing up the kids. Penny can do one and Leonard can step up to the challenge.

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[Die Zimtzicke]

3 hours ago, Mario D. said:

I just got the feeling when she said that her and Leonard were married two years and they were no further along in their marriage as when they were dating.  It signaled to me that she wanted more out of her marriage, like a baby or a house and was kind of envious of Bernadette. 

We don't know what she was thinking because they never specified. And I don't know how anyone could be envious of Bernadette married to Howard and living in his mother's house,.

 

53 minutes ago, bfm said:

You can't compromise about this, you can't have half a child or have a child when you want and not have them when you don't.

If I ever meet you I'm going to give you a hug.

 

54 minutes ago, bfm said:

One person wrote, I think it was on Facebook, that they thought that if the situation was reversed Leonard would have been called an abuser. I don't think that's true, I think people wouldn't want him to have kids if he didn't want to the same way it goes for Penny. However, I do think people may have been harsher if it were him. Gender inequality works both ways.

Yes, it does, and the fact that they have gone here when they didn't need to is troubling. I'm not sure what they were going for. They could have just done nothing and let people who were pro-baby and anti-baby just ride it out instead of doing this. I knew a guy who did not want kids. He married a woman who agreed with him before the wedding that they did not need kids. He made it very clear before they were married that because he was older and didn't feel like he wanted to do that at his age he was not interested in kids. Bingo- a few years later she wanted kids and even though he thought the issue had been settled long ago, everyone was on her side, saying that she had the right to a family, that if something happened to him she wouldn't have anything, and that he should think long and hard about changing his mind, which he didn't want to do. The argument infected every part of their marriage until they split up.

12 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

I'm sure he didn't ask Wyatt to call penny and force her to change her mind.

I don't know how you can be so sure of that. I think based on his comment that Wyatt was not okay with that it's exactly what he did.

 

[Mario D.]

1 hour ago, Tonstar17 said:

What gets me is that Leonard is been called all the names under the sun but penny gets off Scott free because she is a women and not one should force her to have kids if she doesn't want to. I get that. But what about Leonard feelings that are not considered. I have never know Leonard to stomp out of 4a like he did. He must have been shocked, devastated and broken, but no, his feelings doesn't means nothing to some, he is just a dick for calling Wyatt. Leonard showed great courage by putting it all aside for Penny. Even thought he is fine with it doesn't mean he is happy with the situation. This will bite at him for years to come and he may even end up resenting Penny.

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I don't know about the resentment.  Like almost everyone here has commented the thing that bothers me was that Penny did not tell Leonard about her feelings of no children. And Leonard seemed to be taken by surprise and stormed out. But in the end he seemed to go along with her decision because love trumps all else. But it shows alot of courage to admit to this even though he may not totally believe it himself.

[Tonstar17]

I don't know how you can be so sure of that. I think based on his comment that Wyatt was not okay with that it's exactly what he did.
 

So you think Wyatt finding out Penny doesn't want kids and Leonard forced him to call Penny. We know he wants grandkids. He doesn't need Leonard to tell him to force her to change her mind.

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[bfm]

23 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Yes, it does, and the fact that they have gone here when they didn't need to is troubling. I'm not sure what they were going for. They could have just done nothing and let people who were pro-baby and anti-baby just ride it out instead of doing this.

Exactly. I don't think they think through their decisions enough. Just like the boat kiss and sloppy Lenny wedding (that they had to do another one to make ammends for), the Penny and Raj hookup... They don't think things thorugh and then have some of the very dedicated fans very upset.

[Swedish Chef]

21 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

I don't know about the resentment.  Like almost everyone here has commented the thing that bothers me was that Penny did not tell Leonard about her feelings of no children. And Leonard seemed to be taken by surprise and stormed out. But in the end he seemed to go along with her decision because love trumps all else. But it shows alot of courage to admit to this even though he may not totally believe it himself.

Isn't this like that boat kiss all over again?. Penny didn't tell Leonard before because the writers just came up with this stupid idea this season.

[Tonstar17]

I don't know about the resentment.  Like almost everyone here has commented the thing that bothers me was that Penny did not tell Leonard about her feelings of no children. And Leonard seemed to be taken by surprise and stormed out. But in the end he seemed to go along with her decision because love trumps all else. But it shows alot of courage to admit to this even though he may not totally believe it himself.

Yeah but for how long? It's too quick to get over something like that in record time. It will eat up on him. How many times has Leonard said he is okay with things to please Penny and we find out later he is not.

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[bfm]

10 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

Isn't this like that boat kiss all over again?. Penny didn't tell Leonard before because the writers just came up with this stupid idea this season.

Exactly. I didn't really notice at first, but they also made the impression that Leonard and Penny never ever talked about the issue of kids before. I noticed when I saw other people on different media were under that impression. TPTB take advantage of more casual viewers not remembering things. It is true that they talked about it after marriage and didn't talk about the timing and amount (but neither did Shamy, they only talked amount when it was casually brought up when Berndatte gave birth), but they did talk and she said she wanted them. However, TPTB seemed to deliver the message that Leonard was to (take part of the) blame for not talking about this with her previously. It's not that he just assumed she wanted them, she told him that and he didn't have a reason to not believe her or expect her to change her mind. But they have to turn it on Leonard. 

[April]

6 minutes ago, bfm said:

Exactly. I didn't really notice at first, but they also made the impression that Leonard and Penny never ever talked about the issue of kids before. I noticed when I saw other people on different media were under that impression. TPTB take advantage of more casual viewers not remembering things. It is true that they talked about it after marriage and didn't talk about the timing and amount (but neither did Shamy, they only talked amount when it was casually brought up when Berndatte gave birth), but they did talk and she said she wanted them. However, TPTB seemed to deliver the message that Leonard was to (take part of the) blame for not talking about this with her previously. It's not that he just assumed she wanted them, she told him that and he didn't have a reason to not believe her or expect her to change her mind. But they have to turn it on Leonard. 

The issue is how you interpret "talk" here. Lots of people don't see two lines of "yeah, someday, sure" as a proper talk. You obviously think different (and of course with Lenny you get so little you gotta cling to every straw you get) but it might simply be a misunderstanding of semantics with those comments from other people.

[legacy99]

Personally I think in 5 or 6 weeks we'll get a report from tptb that the writers think Amy getting pregnant will be a great story line

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[Tonstar17]

Personally I think in 5 or 6 weeks we'll get a report from tptb that the writers think Amy getting pregnant will be a great story line

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Yep. The only reason they are writing the no babies one shot arc for lenny is so they can hand it down to Shamy. Just like the, no mention of the engagement, marriage and honeymoon.

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[bfm]

24 minutes ago, April said:

The issue is how you interpret "talk" here. Lots of people don't see two lines of "yeah, someday, sure" as a proper talk. You obviously think different (and of course with Lenny you get so little you gotta cling to every straw you get) but it might simply be a misunderstanding of semantics with those comments from other people.

Still, it's not like this is the very first time the subject was brought up. It's not like Shamy talked about timing either. There was the first time when they wanted to have kids the artificial way, then later Sheldon courting her and her saying she wasn't ready. How is that sooo different than "someday"? 

If I had a partner tell me he wasn't in a rush but sure wanted to have kids someday I wouldn't think he's hiding doubts. I would count that as raising the subject and getting an opinion. Would it be possible for him to change his mind? Well, yeah, but I wouldn't be expecting it. 

Regardless of how serious you consider these talks, you can't deny they happened, as TPTB seemed to imply. 

[chucky]

16 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

Yep. The only reason they are writing the no babies one shot arc for lenny is so they can hand it down to Shamy. Just like the, no mention of the engagement, marriage and honeymoon.

Same old crap, screw Lenny and praise shamy. I'm so glad the show is ending! Thank you Jim for your courage and conviction to make the decision to move on!

[April]

10 minutes ago, bfm said:

Still, it's not like this is the very first time the subject was brought up. It's not like Shamy talked about timing either. There was the first time when they wanted to have kids the artificial way, then later Sheldon courting her and her saying she wasn't ready. How is that sooo different than "someday"? 

Not sure what that has to do with Shamy???

Though of course the difference is that they've both brought up the plan of having kids one day at different points and from YS we already know they will have kids. We don't know when and how many though and maybe we'll never find out. *shrug*

Quote

If I had a partner tell me he wasn't in a rush but sure wanted to have kids someday I wouldn't think he's hiding doubts. I would count that as raising the subject and getting an opinion. Would it be possible for him to change his mind? Well, yeah, but I wouldn't be expecting it. 

Regardless of how serious you consider these talks, you can't deny they happened, as TPTB seemed to imply. 

Actually, depending on my gut feeling, like if he'd be doing this for years, I might think my partner is stalling cause he might not want kids - it's not unheard of. Or maybe I just read too many advice columns. lol

I don't deny they happened, I just simply brought up that many people might not consider these much of a "talk" at all.

Edited October 6, 2018 by April

[Tonstar17]

Same old crap, screw Lenny and praise shamy. I'm so glad the show is ending! Thank you Jim for your courage and conviction to make the decision to move on!

Even Jim got tired of the crap and wanted out. Same old tired crap week in week out must have helped him make his mind up.

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[Mario D.]

3 minutes ago, April said:

Not sure what that has to do with Shamy???

Though of course the difference is that they've both brought up the plan of having kids one day at different points and from YS we already know they will have kids. We don't know when and how many though and maybe we'll never find out. *shrug*

Actually, depending on my gut feeling, like if he'd be doing this for years, I might think my partner is stalling cause he might not want kids - it's not unheard of. Or maybe I just read too many advice columns. lol

I don't deny they happened, I just simply brought up that many people might not consider these much of a "talk" at all.

You know if you watch the tape again when Leonard is asking Penny the questions and he comes to the baby question and says "yeah, in maybe  3 to 5 years" look at Pennys reaction. It is like she knew she was thinking about not having kids and didn't know how to tell him.