[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread

[April]

Just now, Mario D. said:

You know if you watch the tape again when Leonard is asking Penny the questions and he comes to the baby question and says "yeah, in maybe  3 to 5 years" look at Pennys reaction. It is like she knew she was thinking about not having kids and didn't know how to tell him.

Oh yes, exactly. That was obvious. I'll readily agree that in the past it was less obvious and maybe she was just pushing it aside in hope that the issue will somehow solve itself (like her biological clock kicking in or whatever). But still her answers weren't exactly enthusiastic and if my partner was giving me that for years I'd be at least a bit suspicious if I really wanted kids (soon-ish).

[bfm]

50 minutes ago, April said:

Not sure what that has to do with Shamy???

Though of course the difference is that they've both brought up the plan of having kids one day at different points and from YS we already know they will have kids. We don't know when and how many though and maybe we'll never find out. *shrug*

Actually, depending on my gut feeling, like if he'd be doing this for years, I might think my partner is stalling cause he might not want kids - it's not unheard of. Or maybe I just read too many advice columns. lol

I don't deny they happened, I just simply brought up that many people might not consider these much of a "talk" at all.

The episode kind of accused Lenny for not talking about children before. I'm bringing Shamy as a comparison because Lenny were kind of pointed at for "doing wrong" when in fact the difference between them and Shamy on this matter is not all that big. 

I was using a "general" you, I didn't mean you specifically. The reactions I'm talking about (posts here, comment in other media, reviews), treat this as if there was never any talk about this issue between Lenny, which is what waz implied in this episode but is simply not true. It is as untrue as Leonard being guilty of them living with Sheldon for a year.

43 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

You know if you watch the tape again when Leonard is asking Penny the questions and he comes to the baby question and says "yeah, in maybe  3 to 5 years" look at Pennys reaction. It is like she knew she was thinking about not having kids and didn't know how to tell him.

This time yes, if her answers and reaction were this way previously then I would have suspected she did not want kids and would've thought Leonard should question her more. But it wasn't this way and Kaley was clearly not instructed to hint at doubts before this episode. It's also not like she has been saying "someday" for like 5 years, the first "someday" was a few months after they got married and another was about a year aftet that.

[April]

1 minute ago, bfm said:

The episode kind of accused Lenny for not talking about children before. I'm bringing Shamy as a comparison because Lenny were kind of pointed at for "doing wrong" when in fact the difference between them and Shamy on this matter is not all that big. 

Except Shamy have both been excited about the prospect of having kids at all. That is already a big difference despite not having a concrete plan, yet. Has Penny ever excitedly brought up the prospect of having kids? I can't remember her ever marvelling at the mere idea of it.

[bfm]

31 minutes ago, April said:

Except Shamy have both been excited about the prospect of having kids at all. That is already a big difference despite not having a concrete plan, yet. Has Penny ever excitedly brought up the prospect of having kids? I can't remember her ever marvelling at the mere idea of it.

We are talking about bringing the issue up and expressing opinions, I'm not sure what measuring excitement has to do with it. Was Leonard supposed to ask her to rate her excitement about the idea? The implied accusation was that they never talked about it before. This is not true. 

Excitement is subjective anyways. In season 9 I felt Penny did want kids. When I compare season 9 to season 12 it is totally different in terms of emotion. How excited was Amy? When making their very first baby plans they were both interested in having an exceptional offspring. I didn't see that much excitement about the prospect of motherhood. In season 10 I didn't see her extremely excited. I got that she wanted kids but not at the time, like Penny in season 9. In season 11 they just talked amount because it came up. This is all subjective and I'm almost certain you will disagree but again, I wasn't talking excitement but the fact that there were previous talks that were not all that different in content than those of another couple on the show. 

[April]

43 minutes ago, bfm said:

We are talking about bringing the issue up and expressing opinions, I'm not sure what measuring excitement has to do with it. Was Leonard supposed to ask her to rate her excitement about the idea? The implied accusation was that they never talked about it before. This is not true. 

Excitement is subjective anyways. In season 9 I felt Penny did want kids. When I compare season 9 to season 12 it is totally different in terms of emotion. How excited was Amy? When making their very first baby plans they were both interested in having an exceptional offspring. I didn't see that much excitement about the prospect of motherhood. In season 10 I didn't see her extremely excited. I got that she wanted kids but not at the time, like Penny in season 9. In season 11 they just talked amount because it came up. This is all subjective and I'm almost certain you will disagree but again, I wasn't talking excitement but the fact that there were previous talks that were not all that different in content than those of another couple on the show. 

You were the one asking "What is the difference between Shamy and Lenny here?" - bringing it up and being excited IS the difference.

You had them chatting about kids off screen during the summer between S3 and S4 which led to the plot in 4x01, you had them both be excited at the prospect of procreating on Mars in S8, and while Amy rejected Sheldon's baby fever in S10 you had her express how many kids she wants and even fighting with Leonard about the name in S11. So it's coming from both of them at various points in the show and both in a positive context, no matter how much you want to slice hairs about level of excitement.

What we got from Lenny was Leonard dreaming of smart & beautiful babies, Leonard thinking they'd make good parents and Leonard picking out names - while Penny was only reacting like "yeah, sure, someday" and the only time she even remotely brought it up was with the girls where she felt pressured into having certain relationship milestones, which you can certainly interpret as you like but the bottom line is that the writers have never ever let Penny be excited about the prospect of kids with Leonard on her own accord. It's all on Leonard here.

Not that a comparison matters anyway because Lenny are not Shamy and the writers clearly approach both couples differently. You might as well throw in Howardette as a comparison and it still won't help anyone to understand why the writers just don't write any proper relationship progressing stories for Lenny. They clearly can with Shamy. They clearly can with Howardette. But with Lenny they just give them stories about how they don't do things or don't want things or don't plan things or don't... whatever. It's almost like the writers think "don't" is Lenny's thing somehow.

Edited October 6, 2018 by April

[Die Zimtzicke]

3 hours ago, Tonstar17 said:

So you think Wyatt finding out Penny doesn't want kids and Leonard forced him to call Penny. We know he wants grandkids. He doesn't need Leonard to tell him to force her to change her mind.

No I do not think Leonard forced him. But I think he knew that's what Wyatt would do.

 

3 hours ago, legacy99 said:

Personally I think in 5 or 6 weeks we'll get a report from tptb that the writers think Amy getting pregnant will be a great story line

I hope not.

[3ku11]

I mean who really cares if Lenny has kids or not. So what. Penny never gave Leonard any impression she was fully committed to it. Penny is entitled to live a carefree life. Not seeing the problem here. Lenny seem fine about it. Whether or not that changes later on. Who knows. But I don’t think this is that big of deal. 

[smartandbeautiful]

Just now, April said:

You were the one asking "What is the difference between Shamy and Lenny here?" - bringing it up and being excited IS the difference.

You had them chatting about kids off screen during the summer between S3 and S4 which led to the plot in 4x01, you had them both be excited at the prospect of procreating on Mars in S8, and while Amy rejected Sheldon's baby fever in S10 you had her express how many kids she wants and even fighting with Leonard about the name in S11. So it's coming from both of them at various points in the show and both in a positive context, no matter how much you want to slice hairs about level of excitement.

What we got from Lenny was Leonard dreaming of smart & beautiful babies, Leonard thinking they'd make good parents and Leonard picking out names - while Penny was only reacting like "yeah, sure, someday" and the only time she even remotely brought it up was with the girl where she felt pressured into having certain relationship milestones, which you can certainly interpret as you like but the bottom line is that the writers have never ever let Penny be excited about the prospect of kids with Leonard on her own accord. It's all on Leonard here.

Not that a comparison matters anyway because Lenny are not Shamy and the writers clearly approach both couples differently. You might as well throw in Howardette as a comparison and it still won't help anyone to understand why the writers just don't write any proper relationship progressing stories for Lenny. They clearly can with Shamy. They clearly can with Howardette. But with Lenny they just give them stories about how they don't do things or don't want things or don't plan things or don't... whatever. It's almost like the writers think "don't" is Lenny's thing somehow.

Penny actually participated in the ‘names picking’ in S11, saying she always liked the name Christian. It could be interpreted differently, but for me it was a hint, that she was thinking about her kids’ names.

And I also wanted to say that Penny maybe didn’t directly talk about having babies, but she always was The Mother of the show, the most mom-maternal character. She took care of Sheldon as if he was her son (in S8 he told her something like ‘sometimes I see you as my mother’), she was sweet and caring all along. And I didn’t need her to say ‘I want to have kids’ or to fight for the names, for me it was clear by her actions and her attitude towards the others. It was proved 100% in S11, when Halley called her ‘mama’ instead of Bernie. But again, maybe I’m the only one, who interpreted it that way and was expecting her to be a mom in the finale season (or at least episode). IMO, it would be just natural and fit the character development perfectly 

Edited October 6, 2018 by smartandbeautiful

[April]

31 minutes ago, smartandbeautiful said:

Penny actually participated in the ‘names picking’ in S11, saying she always liked the name Christian. It could be interpreted differently, but for me it was a hint, that she was thinking about her kids’ names.

That clearly slipped everybody's mind cause you're the first to bring this up in the weeks since the TR where we've discussed this and I've asked for instances where Penny participates in such a way. It's still a bit low key compared to literally fighting over names but at least it's something. So thanks for that.

Quote

And I also wanted to say that Penny maybe didn’t directly talk about having babies, but she always was The Mother of the show, the most mom-maternal character. She took care of Sheldon as if he was her son (in S8 he told her something like ‘sometimes I see you as my mother’), she was sweet and caring all along. And I didn’t need her to say ‘I want to have kids’ or to fight for the names, for me it was clear by her actions and her attitude towards the others. It was proved 100% in S11, when Halley called her ‘mama’ instead of Bernie. But again, maybe I’m the only one, who interpreted it that way and was expecting her to be a mom in the finale season (or at least episode). IMO, it would be just natural and fit the character development perfectly 

I'm not arguing one way or another here. I also thought that Penny would end up with kids by the end of the show (and I still kinda think she will albeit in a messier way now) but at the same time I never felt they made her enthusiastic about kids. Yes, she is very motherly to various characters on the show but that doesn't necessarily translate to adding her own babies to the mix.

Look, there were many opportunities for the writers to give her a clear enthusiastic pro-baby stance but they kept it a bit vague for whatever reason. That's why we're in this weird pickle where we even can / have to discuss how ppl can interpret scenes differently. Now the writers decided to end any ambiguity but not how most of us thought they would. It sucks, no need to deny that. In the end it's clear to me that a lot of viewers are not on the same page as the writers when it comes to Lenny.

[smartandbeautiful]

3 minutes ago, April said:

That clearly slipped everybody's mind cause you're the first to bring this up in the weeks since the TR where we've discussed this and I've asked for instances where Penny participates in such a way. It's still a bit low key compared to literally fighting over names but at least it's something. So thanks for that.

I actually went to check that, cause for a moment I thought maybe it's just something my mind made up, so yeah, I get what you mean 😅

4 minutes ago, April said:

I'm not arguing one way or another here. I also thought that Penny would end up with kids by the end of the show (and I still kinda think she will albeit in a messier way now) but at the same time I never felt they made her enthusiastic about kids. Yes, she is very motherly to various characters on the show but that doesn't necessarily translate to adding her own babies to the mix.

Look, there were many opportunities for the writers to give her a clear enthusiastic pro-baby stance but they kept it a bit vague for whatever reason. That's why we're in this weird pickle where we even can / have to discuss how ppl can interpret scenes differently. Now the writers decided to end any ambiguity but not how most of us thought they would. It sucks, no need to deny that. In the end it's clear to me that a lot of viewers are not on the same page as the writers when it comes to Lenny.

Totally agree with this, however, in Penny's case I just assumed that's where the writers lead us and didn't have a single doubt about those smart and beautiful babies until 12x03, it hit me hard 😅

[SRAM]

6 hours ago, bfm said:

You can't compromise about this, you can't have half a child or have a child when you want and not have them when you don't.

I agree, that is exactly why Leonard should leave Penny, if there was ever a real reason for it this episode is it, there is no compromise, Penny decided.

[smartandbeautiful]

Just now, SRAM said:

I agree, that is exactly why Leonard should leave Penny, if there was ever a real reason for it this episode is it, there is no compromise, Penny decided.

IMO, he would be much more devastated without Penny, than without kids 

[chucky]

20 minutes ago, smartandbeautiful said:

IMO, he would be much more devastated without Penny, than without kids 

My opinion as well! Although, Alex Jensen may still be available!   

Edited October 7, 2018 by chucky

[Mario D.]

3 hours ago, bfm said:

The episode kind of accused Lenny for not talking about children before. I'm bringing Shamy as a comparison because Lenny were kind of pointed at for "doing wrong" when in fact the difference between them and Shamy on this matter is not all that big. 

I was using a "general" you, I didn't mean you specifically. The reactions I'm talking about (posts here, comment in other media, reviews), treat this as if there was never any talk about this issue between Lenny, which is what waz implied in this episode but is simply not true. It is as untrue as Leonard being guilty of them living with Sheldon for a year.

This time yes, if her answers and reaction were this way previously then I would have suspected she did not want kids and would've thought Leonard should question her more. But it wasn't this way and Kaley was clearly not instructed to hint at doubts before this episode. It's also not like she has been saying "someday" for like 5 years, the first "someday" was a few months after they got married and another was about a year aftet that.

I agree with you  I don't believe she even thought about it before.  It certainly seems like it came out of the blue.  I guess it is another obstacle for them just like Leonard's boat kiss.

[bfm]

2 hours ago, April said:

You were the one asking "What is the difference between Shamy and Lenny here?" - bringing it up and being excited IS the difference.

You had them chatting about kids off screen during the summer between S3 and S4 which led to the plot in 4x01, you had them both be excited at the prospect of procreating on Mars in S8, and while Amy rejected Sheldon's baby fever in S10 you had her express how many kids she wants and even fighting with Leonard about the name in S11. So it's coming from both of them at various points in the show and both in a positive context, no matter how much you want to slice hairs about level of excitement.

What we got from Lenny was Leonard dreaming of smart & beautiful babies, Leonard thinking they'd make good parents and Leonard picking out names - while Penny was only reacting like "yeah, sure, someday" and the only time she even remotely brought it up was with the girls where she felt pressured into having certain relationship milestones, which you can certainly interpret as you like but the bottom line is that the writers have never ever let Penny be excited about the prospect of kids with Leonard on her own accord. It's all on Leonard here.

Not that a comparison matters anyway because Lenny are not Shamy and the writers clearly approach both couples differently. You might as well throw in Howardette as a comparison and it still won't help anyone to understand why the writers just don't write any proper relationship progressing stories for Lenny. They clearly can with Shamy. They clearly can with Howardette. But with Lenny they just give them stories about how they don't do things or don't want things or don't plan things or don't... whatever. It's almost like the writers think "don't" is Lenny's thing somehow.

I think you're misinterpreting my posts.

The goal of the comparison was to point out how unfair it was of TPTB to basically accuse Lenny of never talking about the subject of children before, when they had talked about it and there was not much less content to that than there was to Shamy's talks (BTW, again it's subjective, I don't take 04×01 plans or Martian babies more seriously than what was previously establishex with Lenny). And yes you can bring Howardette into this - it was only coincidentally brought up between them, IIRC when they were already engaged. So why are Lenny presented as the irresponsible freaky couple here?

Also, note that before this season people did not talk about how Penny was having doubts and may not want kids. It's coming up now excusing the writers. Why did they not have her too enthusiastic? Obviously because that would leave them with little excuse to not have babies on the show which they didn't want. (I could ask you why Sheldon waited so long to pull out the ring, did he not want to get married? Did he propose out of guilt? My answers are of course not) So why this stupidity now? Who knows. Maybe because they were tired of the questions because the streching started to seem like too much when both wanted kids so they changed her opinion just like that. Oopsie Daisy.

1 hour ago, smartandbeautiful said:

Penny actually participated in the ‘names picking’ in S11, saying she always liked the name Christian. It could be interpreted differently, but for me it was a hint, that she was thinking about her kids’ names.

And I also wanted to say that Penny maybe didn’t directly talk about having babies, but she always was The Mother of the show, the most mom-maternal character. She took care of Sheldon as if he was her son (in S8 he told her something like ‘sometimes I see you as my mother’), she was sweet and caring all along. And I didn’t need her to say ‘I want to have kids’ or to fight for the names, for me it was clear by her actions and her attitude towards the others. It was proved 100% in S11, when Halley called her ‘mama’ instead of Bernie. But again, maybe I’m the only one, who interpreted it that way and was expecting her to be a mom in the finale season (or at least episode). IMO, it would be just natural and fit the character development perfectly 

You are most certainly not the only one who feels this way.

1 hour ago, April said:

That clearly slipped everybody's mind cause you're the first to bring this up in the weeks since the TR where we've discussed this and I've asked for instances where Penny participates in such a way. It's still a bit low key compared to literally fighting over names but at least it's something. So thanks for that.

Many remember it. I personally didn't bring it up because I knew the response would be that she just liked the name and it didn't matter.

[April]

3 hours ago, bfm said:

I think you're misinterpreting my posts.

The goal of the comparison was to point out how unfair it was of TPTB to basically accuse Lenny of never talking about the subject of children before, when they had talked about it and there was not much less content to that than there was to Shamy's talks (BTW, again it's subjective, I don't take 04×01 plans or Martian babies more seriously than what was previously establishex with Lenny). And yes you can bring Howardette into this - it was only coincidentally brought up between them, IIRC when they were already engaged. So why are Lenny presented as the irresponsible freaky couple here?

How serious or not you personally find it doesn't matter. Of course some situations are silly because it's a sitcom and if Lenny had a silly discussion about kids that would still count in my book. The difference is that the other two couples brought it up before marriage. In Howardette's case it was serious as it was a deal-breaker for Howard. They got engaged super quick so it makes sense they haven't talked about everything, yet. Shamy's examples are more over the top because, you know, sitcom. But they talked about the prospect of kids before marriage and the first time was shortly after they met.

Lenny however? Nada. They had a long long courting phase and apparently it never came up, not even off screen? It sure does play into this godawful running gag about them not being able to talk about anything because they are so different. Ugh (and yes, if you didn't notice I don't like it either)

3 hours ago, bfm said:

Also, note that before this season people did not talk about how Penny was having doubts and may not want kids. It's coming up now excusing the writers. Why did they not have her too enthusiastic? Obviously because that would leave them with little excuse to not have babies on the show which they didn't want. (I could ask you why Sheldon waited so long to pull out the ring, did he not want to get married? Did he propose out of guilt? My answers are of course not) So why this stupidity now? Who knows. Maybe because they were tired of the questions because the streching started to seem like too much when both wanted kids so they changed her opinion just like that. Oopsie Daisy.

Oh yeah, I would totally think this was just to buy them some time in the past cause after making Bernie a mother (who could have been their poster child for the childfree crowd if they actually wanted one)  I thought they were going for a babies ever after conclusion of the show. And I gotta say even after reading the TR it took me a bit by surprise how serious they made Penny about this. They didn't leave themselves much wiggle room with this and I think it was kinda unnecessary cause, GDI writers, learn to read the room- ppl want a fluffy ending for Lenny!

3 hours ago, bfm said:

Many remember it. I personally didn't bring it up because I knew the response would be that she just liked the name and it didn't matter.

Oh come on! It's always easy to say that after the fact. Just do it next time!

[3ku11]

6 hours ago, smartandbeautiful said:

Penny actually participated in the ‘names picking’ in S11, saying she always liked the name Christian. It could be interpreted differently, but for me it was a hint, that she was thinking about her kids’ names.

And I also wanted to say that Penny maybe didn’t directly talk about having babies, but she always was The Mother of the show, the most mom-maternal character. She took care of Sheldon as if he was her son (in S8 he told her something like ‘sometimes I see you as my mother’), she was sweet and caring all along. And I didn’t need her to say ‘I want to have kids’ or to fight for the names, for me it was clear by her actions and her attitude towards the others. It was proved 100% in S11, when Halley called her ‘mama’ instead of Bernie. But again, maybe I’m the only one, who interpreted it that way and was expecting her to be a mom in the finale season (or at least episode). IMO, it would be just natural and fit the character development perfectly 

Penny said in the episode, and acknowledged she would make a great mother. ITs just not something she wants. And I Don't see why Penny needs to conform to the logical evolution of a woman bearing a child. She is entitled to not want to do that. And Leonard is also entitled to want kids. But it is something he's half wanted the whole series. They have never had any proper discussion about kids. Which does play into the gag, that they have nothing in common. And what the heck do they even talk about. 

[bfm]

2 hours ago, April said:

How serious or not you personally find it doesn't matter. Of course some situations are silly because it's a sitcom and if Lenny had a silly discussion about kids that would still count in my book. The difference is that the other two couples brought it up before marriage. In Howardette's case it was serious as it was a deal-breaker for Howard. They got engaged super quick so it makes sense they haven't talked about everything, yet. Shamy's examples are more over the top because, you know, sitcom. But they talked about the prospect of kids before marriage and the first time was shortly after they met.

Lenny however? Nada. They had a long long courting phase and apparently it never came up, not even off screen? 

 You're refuting claims I did not make. I said they didn't talk about it before marriage but they did after. However, the writers intentionally made it seem like this was the first timr the subject came up.

2 hours ago, April said:

Oh yeah, I would totally think this was just to buy them some time in the past cause after making Bernie a mother (who could have been their poster child for the childfree crowd if they actually wanted one)  I thought they were going for a babies ever after conclusion of the show. And I gotta say even after reading the TR it took me a bit by surprise how serious they made Penny about this. They didn't leave themselves much wiggle room with this and I think it was kinda unnecessary cause, GDI writers, learn to read the room- ppl want a fluffy ending for Lenny!

With this I agree. It is all the more cruel because they did make her want children previously so people were expecting it to happen at or after the end of the serious and now it's like they're laughing at our faces for taking what they wrote seriously. Yeah that's the feeling you want to get from a sitcom you've been following for years.

2 hours ago, April said:

Oh come on! It's always easy to say that after the fact. Just do it next time!

Are you calling me a lier or something?

The reason I pointed that out was not to say "Hey I remembered too!" but to explain why it wasn't brough up first. It's not that people didn't remember.

[smartandbeautiful]

Just now, 3ku11 said:

Penny said in the episode, and acknowledged she would make a great mother. ITs just not something she wants. And I Don't see why Penny needs to conform to the logical evolution of a woman bearing a child. She is entitled to not want to do that. And Leonard is also entitled to want kids. But it is something he's half wanted the whole series. They have never had any proper discussion about kids. Which does play into the gag, that they have nothing in common. And what the heck do they even talk about. 

Well, I totally understand what you’re saying, but can’t agree. Not because you’re wrong, just because I feel differently about this situation and this character. In the beginning of the series my brain unintentionally made an assumption that Penny would be a great mom, it was proved many times throughout the seasons, and I got accustomed to that thought, expecting some kind of pregnancy/kids plot twist for her. Watching 12x03, I couldn’t be more surprised and upset, cause her words just didn’t fit the character, like Penny suddenly changed A LOT. I know it could happen irl, but just not out of the blue, without any background or motivation. I repeat, this is how I see it, for me it’s not about logical evolution in general, I’m of course not saying that every woman should do this. I only had some expectations for Penny as a character and now I’m a bit bummed and upset it’s not going to happen. 

As for the differences, yes, the others mentioned it many times in the new season, which is also kinda suspicious. I hope the writers won’t separate Lenny by the end, because they ‘have nothing in common’ (for me they are not THAT different btw) 

Edited October 7, 2018 by smartandbeautiful

[April]

2 minutes ago, bfm said:

 You're refuting claims I did not make. I said they didn't talk about it before marriage but they did after. However, the writers intentionally made it seem like this was the first timr the subject came up.

It's not refuting your claim, it's continuing to point out the differences you've repeatedly asked about. One of them is the fact that the other two couples had entire plots about the issue before they got married and even after in the case of Howardette. Lenny got the occasional line here or there but this is the first time the writers made it a plot for them and this is the result.

In the end the writers clearly think differently of Lenny than you and many other fans did/do which sucks and I really do feel for you, believe me. But to me there's no denying that the other couples simply got more proper attention on the subject than Lenny did.

2 minutes ago, bfm said:

With this I agree. It is all the more cruel because they did make her want children previously so people were expecting it to happen at or after the end of the serious and now it's like they're laughing at our faces for taking what they wrote seriously. Yeah that's the feeling you want to get from a sitcom you've been following for years.

Yep, again, never denied that it sucks for their fans.

2 minutes ago, bfm said:

Are you calling me a lier or something?

???

2 minutes ago, bfm said:

The reason I pointed that out was not to say "Hey I remembered too!" but to explain why it wasn't brough up first. It's not that people didn't remember.

I don't care.

[chucky]

4 minutes ago, smartandbeautiful said:

I hope the writers won’t separate Lenny by the end, because they ‘have nothing in common’ (for me they not THAT different btw) 

Yes, they are different, but in a good way. Together they form a perfect person, unless the writers get in the way!

[smartandbeautiful]

Just now, chucky said:

Yes, they are different, but in a good way. Together they form a perfect person, unless the writers get in the way!

Yes this is exactly how I see it, they are different, but not ‘how are you two even married’ different

[chucky]

2 minutes ago, smartandbeautiful said:

Yes this is exactly how I see it, they are different, but not ‘how are you two even married’ different

EXACTLY!!

[bfm]

9 minutes ago, smartandbeautiful said:

Well, I totally understand what you’re saying, but can’t agree. Not because you’re wrong, just because I feel differently about this situation and this character. In the beginning of the series my brain unintentionally made an assumption that Penny would be a great mom, it was proved many times throughout the seasons, and I got accustomed to that thought, expecting some kind of pregnancy/kids plot twist for her. Watching 12x03, I couldn’t be more surprised and upset, cause her words just didn’t fit the character, like Penny suddenly changed A LOT. I know it could happen irl, but just not out of the blue, without any background or motivation. I repeat, this is how I see it, for me it’s not about logical evolution in general, I’m of course not saying that every woman should do this. I only had some expectations for Penny as a character and now I’m a bit bummed and upset it’s not going to happen. 

As for the differences, yes, the others mentioned it many times in the new season, which is also kinda suspicious. I hope the writers won’t separate Lenny by the end, because they ‘have nothing in common’ (for me they are not THAT different btw) 

I agree with you, only that's I'm wayyy more than "a bit bummed and upset".

6 minutes ago, April said:

It's not refuting your claim, it's continuing to point out the differences you've repeatedly asked about. One of them is the fact that the other two couples had entire plots about the issue before they got married and even after in the case of Howardette. Lenny got the occasional line here or there but this is the first time the writers made it a plot for them and this is the result.

In the end the writers clearly think differently of Lenny than you and many other fans did/do which sucks and I really do feel for you, believe me. But to me there's no denying that the other couples simply got more proper attention on the subject than Lenny did.

Again, TPTB implied the topic never came up before. This is simply not true. Did it came up later? Yes. Did it get less attention? Yes. Still - Howardette did not actually intend to talk about it before marriage, it just came up and became more serious because they had different opinions. How are they a "better" more resposinble couple for that, as implied? Shamy did not talk in much more concrete terms, the amount came up not because they intitated it. Still they make it seem like Lenny are so wrong and irresponsible and like this was the first time it came up, 3 yeard into marriage, and Leonard had no reason to assume she also wanted kids. That is wrong all the way.

[chucky]

12 minutes ago, bfm said:

I agree with you, only that's I'm wayyy more than "a bit bummed and upset".

Again, TPTB implied the topic never came up before. This is simply not true. Did it came up later? Yes. Did it get less attention? Yes. Still - Howardette did not actually intend to talk about it before marriage, it just came up and became more serious because they had different opinions. How are they a "better" more resposinble couple for that, as implied? Shamy did not talk in much more concrete terms, the amount came up not because they intitated it. Still they make it seem like Lenny are so wrong and irresponsible and like this was the first time it came up, 3 yeard into marriage, and Leonard had no reason to assume she also wanted kids. That is wrong all the way.

Can't agree more. This is a perfect take on the situation!

19 minutes ago, bfm said:

I agree with you, only that's I'm wayyy more than "a bit bummed and upset".

Got cha and understood!!