[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread

[Swedish Chef]

17 minutes ago, bfm said:

I agree with you, only that's I'm wayyy more than "a bit bummed and upset".

Again, TPTB implied the topic never came up before. This is simply not true. Did it came up later? Yes. Did it get less attention? Yes. Still - Howardette did not actually intend to talk about it before marriage, it just came up and became more serious because they had different opinions. How are they a "better" more resposinble couple for that, as implied? Shamy did not talk in much more concrete terms, the amount came up not because they intitated it. Still they make it seem like Lenny are so wrong and irresponsible and like this was the first time it came up, 3 yeard into marriage, and Leonard had no reason to assume she also wanted kids. That is wrong all the way.

Totally agree with you, and if the writers thought this was a funny plot for Lenny they are wayyyyy wrong.

 

[April]

1 minute ago, bfm said:

Again, TPTB implied the topic never came up before. This is simply not true. Did it came up later? Yes. Did it get less attention? Yes. Still - Howardette did not actually intend to talk about it before marriage, it just came up and became more serious because they had different opinions. How are they a "better" more resposinble couple for that, as implied? Shamy did not talk in much more concrete terms, the amount came up not because they intitated it. Still they make it seem like Lenny are so wrong and irresponsible and like this was the first time it came up, 3 yeard into marriage, and Leonard had no reason to assume she also wanted kids. That is wrong all the way.

Okay, first I'm not sure that the show is as judgemental about it any more than it is about the "they have nothing in common" thing which is all a big lark to them even 11 years and counting. So I don't think it's framed as "irresponsible" and "wrong" unless you think that about Lenny in general and we both know you don't.

Second, I will happily agree that they could have written it in a way that included a reference to the earlier times it came up - and they could still end up with the same idea that they never had a serious talk about it. But then again this is tbbt and when do they ever do this? They'd have to include a lot more dramatic writing to explain things and why do that when you can trot out your favourite running gag instead? (Ugh)

[chucky]

10 minutes ago, April said:

Second, I will happily agree that they could have written it in a way that included a reference to the earlier times it came up - and they could still end up with the same idea that they never had a serious talk about it. But then again this is tbbt and when do they ever do this? They'd have to include a lot more dramatic writing to explain things and why do that when you can trot out your favourite running gag instead? (Ugh)

Point taken!

[veejay]

26 minutes ago, April said:

/

Second, I will happily agree that they could have written it in a way that included a reference to the earlier times it came up - and they could still end up with the same idea that they never had a serious talk about it. But then again this is tbbt and when do they ever do this? They'd have to include a lot more dramatic writing to explain things and why do that when you can trot out your favourite running gag instead? (Ugh)

Exactly, that prevents the naming of the real perpetrators (TPTB) and directs all rage at the sudden incredibility of the characters, and I'm not even mentioning YS now.

[bfm]

37 minutes ago, April said:

Okay, first I'm not sure that the show is as judgemental about it any more than it is about the "they have nothing in common" thing which is all a big lark to them even 11 years and counting. So I don't think it's framed as "irresponsible" and "wrong" unless you think that about Lenny in general and we both know you don't.

Second, I will happily agree that they could have written it in a way that included a reference to the earlier times it came up - and they could still end up with the same idea that they never had a serious talk about it. But then again this is tbbt and when do they ever do this? They'd have to include a lot more dramatic writing to explain things and why do that when you can trot out your favourite running gag instead? (Ugh)

In the beginning you have Raj being the voice of judgement saying how they should have talked about these things (then it's where they want to live but it's clearly extended to the kids thing that comes up later with his questionnaire). I'm certainly not the one who caught that and I've seen people (mostly in other media, no this forum, but both social media users and reviewers) take that bait TPTB set up and react as if Lenny never ever talked about it before. 

Yes this is TPTB let's just change things on a whim just because, who cares what was before. Things happen just because, as if these were Sims characters.

Edited October 7, 2018 by bfm

[April]

12 minutes ago, bfm said:

In the beginning you have Raj being the voice of judgement saying how they should have talked about these things (then it's where they want to live but it's clearly extended to the kids thing that comes up later with his questionnaire). I'm certainly not the one who caught that and I've seen people (mostly in other media, no this forum, but both social media users and reviewers) take that bite TPTB set up and react as if Lenny never ever talked about it before. 

I mean, this is just people jumping to conclusions and not necessarily the writers explicitly claiming "The never talked about this!!" - it's all implication and interpretation. But they sure love that "they have nothing in common and don't talk to each other about anything of worth" joke so I can't deny they're encouraging this either. This has been the status quo for Lenny since basically the beginning of the show.

12 minutes ago, bfm said:

Yes this is TPTB let's just change things on a whim just because, who cares what was before. Things happen just because, as if these were Sims characters.

The issue is in part (and this has been my point since the news hit) that they had more wiggle room with Lenny than with the other couples - and maybe deliberately so cause they just don't plan things out and neither do Lenny according to them.

[bfm]

10 minutes ago, April said:

I mean, this is just people jumping to conclusions and not necessarily the writers explicitly claiming "The never talked about this!!" - it's all implication and interpretation. But they sure love that "they have nothing in common and don't talk to each other about anything of worth" joke so I can't deny they're encouraging this either. This has been the status quo for Lenny since basically the beginning of the show.

The issue is in part (and this has been my point since the news hit) that they had more wiggle room with Lenny than with the other couples - and maybe deliberately so cause they just don't plan things out and neither do Lenny according to them.

I don't know what Lenny are according to them since they keep retconing and changing things just like that. You had seven seasons of a certain story and characters, then, and especially from 08×24 they started coming up with OOC stuff that didn't make sense. Some big stuff popped up here and there and a more general tone change, including the beginning of "he wore her down" jokes. In season 11 they were mostly sidelined but there was a clear improvement in tone, dynamics, much more the Lenny we knew and love. Now it's suddenly back to the second half of season 10. 

So I don't think there is too much of an established organized way in which the writers see them. They see them as the couple they can throw anything at, with lame excuses such as "ooh they're impulsive", "heat of the moment", "passionate".  One day it's this way and the other it's another. You can't take anything seriously because they change it just like that.

Edited October 7, 2018 by bfm

[April]

12 minutes ago, bfm said:

I don't know what Lenny are according to them since they keep retconing and changing things just like that. You had seven seasons of a certain story and characters, then, and especially from 08×24 they started coming up with OOC stuff that didn't make sense. Some big stuff popped up here and there and a more general tone change, including the beginning of "he wore her down" jokes. In season 11 they were mostly sidelined but there was a clear improvement in tone, dynamics, much more the Lenny we knew and love. Now it's suddenly back to the second half of season 10. 

So I don't think there is too much of an established organized way in which the writers see them. They see them as the couple they can throw anything at, with lame excuses such as "ooh they're impulsive", "heat of the moment", "passionate".  One day it's this way and the other it's another. You can't take anything seriously because they change it just like that.

Well, they've never written Lenny as being big planners now, have they? That seems to be a pretty consistent thing over the years alongside the "they are different and have nothing to talk about" stuff.

Like, they could have written either Penny or Leonard planning to propose but they didn't. They could have written Lenny planning their wedding but they didn't (and threw in some "they are just that spontaneous!" sort of interviews for good measure). They could have Lenny plan their second wedding but they didn't. They could have Lenny plan all sorts of things about their future but they didn't. Heck, they could have Lenny plan a simple vacation and they didn't do that either. Instead we got all sorts of plots where things happen on a whim or it's pointed out how they didn't do anything worthwhile. At best it's framed as "they only need each other to be happy", at worst it's the usual "they have nothing in common" joke.

[bfm]

46 minutes ago, April said:

Well, they've never written Lenny as being big planners now, have they? That seems to be a pretty consistent thing over the years alongside the "they are different and have nothing to talk about" stuff.

Like, they could have written either Penny or Leonard planning to propose but they didn't. They could have written Lenny planning their wedding but they didn't (and threw in some "they are just that spontaneous!" sort of interviews for good measure). They could have Lenny plan their second wedding but they didn't. They could have Lenny plan all sorts of things about their future but they didn't. Heck, they could have Lenny plan a simple vacation and they didn't do that either. Instead we got all sorts of plots where things happen on a whim or it's pointed out how they didn't do anything worthwhile. At best it's framed as "they only need each other to be happy", at worst it's the usual "they have nothing in common" joke.

I think there's a difference between not being planners and between flipping just like that, just because of writers' whims.

As for the proposals, since "The Tangible Affection Proof" it was made kind of obvious they are planning on getting married, just on a later point when the Penny feels it's time. She said whe thought they will get married (as it turns out that started much before) and she agreed that she will propose when she feels ready. That's kind of a pre-egagement. I love this scene. And in this case they didn't suddenly change that from "when she's ready" to "scratch that, she doesn't want to". 

Not being planners can apply for not planning exactly when to propose or not planning in buying a house right now or not planning a vacation some time ahead. IMO it (or "Oh they have nothing in common!") does not justify the sudden boat kiss or her blaming him for them living with Sheldon when it was het fault or them having weird unconcluded unjustified fights (S10) or her being unnecessarily mean ["You derserved (your brother tormenting/beating you)"] or taking Sheldon's side in an RA argument and having Sheldon write in things that benefit her against Leonard, or Leonard suddenly almost ignoring her ("The Romance Recalibration") or Leonard saying she's a bully or all of a sudden flinching at her movements, or Penny all of a sudden not wanting kids just like that. That IMO is bad writing.

Edited October 7, 2018 by bfm

[April]

1 hour ago, bfm said:

I think there's a difference between not being planners and between flipping just like that, just because of writers' whims.

Well, they are fictional characters that solely exist at the writers' whims so we're all straight out of luck here if you want different characters - unless you resort to fanfics, naturally.

Quote

As for the proposals, since "The Tangible Affection Proof" it was made kind of obvious they are planning on getting married, just on a later point when the Penny feels it's time. She said whe thought they will get married (as it turns out that started much before) and she agreed that she will propose when she feels ready. That's kind of a pre-egagement. I love this scene. And in this case they didn't suddenly change that from "when she's ready" to "scratch that, she doesn't want to". 

It was just an example - and again, you keep shifting the angle to emphasise that these things are not related when they have one central writing approach in common, namely that the writers don't think Lenny are big planners so their relationship moments are often happen on a whim, i.e. here to have Penny propose when the gorilla movie falls through and it shifts her perspective enough to propose right then and there. I don't say these are bad moments - I love the "you stupid pop tart!" to bits - but the writing is consistent with that and it makes it in character.

To elaborate what kind of planing I'm thinking about: The writers could have Penny make plans for a romantic proposal cause she realised it was time in some other way and Leonard likes all this romance stuff so she could put in an effort or whatever but they didn't cause it would feel OOC. Or compare it to Howardette who had a whole episode with the gang gossiping about Howard planning to propose to Bernadette. We don't even see much of the planning but it's the topic of the episode (among others).

Quote

Not being planners can apply for not planning exactly when to propose or not planning in buying a house right now or not planning a vacation some time ahead. IMO it (or "Oh they have nothing in common!") does not justify the sudden boat kiss or her blaming him for them living with Sheldon when it was het fault or them having weird unconcluded unjustified fights (S10) or her being unnecessarily mean ["You derserved (your brother tormenting/beating you)"] or taking Sheldon's side in an RA argument and having Sheldon write in things that benefit her against Leonard, or Leonard suddenly almost ignoring her ("The Romance Recalibration") or Leonard saying she's a bully or all of a sudden flinching at her movements, or Penny all of a sudden not wanting kids just like that. That IMO is bad writing.

I never said these things are related so... not sure why you bring this up?? It's one thing to consistently write Lenny as a couple that doesn't plan and doesn't talk important things through much because of that stupid running gag and what have you - but it's something completely different to throw in sudden drama with Leonard being an ass for no reason (how OOC or IC it may be is surely debatable as well, looking at past discussions in the forum). I wouldn't put these in the same boat.

Edited October 7, 2018 by April

[bfm]

22 minutes ago, April said:

Well, they are fictional characters that solely exist at the writers' whims so we're all straight out of luck here if you want different characters - unless you resort to fanfics, naturally.

It was just an example - and again, you keep shifting the angle to emphasise that these things are not related when they have one central writing approach in common, namely that the writers don't think Lenny are big planners so their relationship moments are often happen on a whim, i.e. here to have Penny propose when the gorilla movie falls through and it shifts her perspective enough to propose right then and there. I don't say these are bad moments - I love the "you stupid pop tart!" to bits - but the writing is consistent with that and it makes it in character.

To elaborate what kind of planing I'm thinking about: The writers could have Penny make plans for a romantic proposal cause she realised it was time in some other way and Leonard likes all this romance stuff so she could put in an effort or whatever but they didn't cause it would feel OOC. Or compare it to Howardette who had a whole episode with the gang gossiping about Howard planning to propose to Bernadette. We don't even see much of the planning but it's the topic of the episode (among others).

I never said these things are related so... not sure why you bring this up?? It's one thing to consistently write Lenny as a couple that doesn't plan and doesn't talk important things through much because of that stupid running gag and what have you - but it's something completely different to throw in sudden drama with Leonard being an ass of no reason (how OOC or IC it may be is surely debatable as well, looking at past discussions in the forum). I wouldn't put these in the same boat.

What I'm trying to say is that the writers just throw random stuff at Lenny with all sorts of excuses that really do not hold up. 

Their proposal was fitting IMO and I really like it. That is not like the other things that IMO show bad writing and that the writers' excuses do not work for. 

I'm not trying to counter you hear, I'm trying to make a point regarding the possible "image" the writers have of Lenny. I think they don't have a well established one, they just have some general excuses that they think allow them to do anything with them. Why do some of us fans have opinions that differ from theirs? Because we have been watching one thing for 7 years and then they started winging it abd turning it into whatever they felt like at the moment. 

As for writers' whims, I wouldn't say every character and event in fiction is due to whims. Many are thought threw. There are other TV shows that hold up to what they've established and where things don't just happen out of the blue. Just off the top of my head, "The Middle", "Friends", "Modern Family". Every show has its faults but these are better than TBBT on that front. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by bfm

[Die Zimtzicke]

7 hours ago, April said:

I think it was kinda unnecessary cause, GDI writers, learn to read the room- ppl want a fluffy ending for Lenny!

I don't think they think everyone does. I don't exactly require fluffy, but I like these two best when  they are well written. They're not a lot of the time. But that has been going on for ages.

 

5 hours ago, April said:

In the end the writers clearly think differently of Lenny than you and many other fans did/do which sucks and I really do feel for you, believe me. But to me there's no denying that the other couples simply got more proper attention on the subject than Lenny did.

I think so, too. Unfortunately a lot that has been said about Lenny has been done flippantly.

3 hours ago, April said:

I mean, this is just people jumping to conclusions and not necessarily the writers explicitly claiming "The never talked about this!!" - it's all implication and interpretation. But they sure love that "they have nothing in common and don't talk to each other about anything of worth" joke so I can't deny they're encouraging this either. This has been the status quo for Lenny since basically the beginning of the show.

Yes, I have not seen commenting from the showrunners about how they came to this decision. Actually, there has been very little commenting from them at all.

3 hours ago, bfm said:

So I don't think there is too much of an established organized way in which the writers see them. They see them as the couple they can throw anything at, with lame excuses such as "ooh they're impulsive", "heat of the moment", "passionate".  One day it's this way and the other it's another. You can't take anything seriously because they change it just like that.

Absolutely.

[bfm]

1 hour ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Yes, I have not seen commenting from the showrunners about how they came to this decision. Actually, there has been very little commenting from them at all.

Oh here they are:

Edited October 7, 2018 by bfm

[April]

4 minutes ago, bfm said:

What I'm trying to say is that the writers just throw random stuff at Lenny with all sorts of excuses that really do not hold up. 

Their proposal was fitting IMO and I really like it. That is not like the other things that IMO show bad writing and that the writers' excuses do not work for. 

I'm not trying to counter you hear, I'm trying to make a point regarding the possible "image" the writers have of Lenny. I think they don't have a well established one, they just have some general excuses that they think allow them to do anything with them. Why do some of us fans have opinions that differ from theirs? Because we have been watching one thing for 7 years and then they started winging it abd turning it into whatever they felt like at the moment. 

As for writers' whims, I wouldn't say every character and event in fiction is due to whims. Many are thought threw. There are other TV shows that hold up to what they've established and where things don't just happen out of the blue. 

Well, I guess what is "bad writing" and what is "this is how they see the characters" are highly debatable categories then. What scene/plot/etc goes into what category is clearly very different depending on who you ask.

In the end this is a show that prides itself in "make shit up as you go" and not one that has multi-year arcs planned out, so by this very nature you end up with random stuff more often here and a couple of well established running gags there, no matter how well or little they fit. Like, there are plenty of things I also didn't like about Shamy in the last episode and I suspect it's a result of the same trotting out some old running gags nonsense (you know, what we coined the "Sheldon will always be Sheldon moments" in the Shamy thread that makes us roll our eyes loud enough to hear even after  Tensor hides the posts lol).

1 minute ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I don't think they think everyone does. I don't exactly require fluffy, but I like these two best when  they are well written. They're not a lot of the time. But that has been going on for ages.

Same difference, I guess. Point is, this is the last season in a fairly uncontroversial comfort food sitcom - this is the time to be a bit of a crowd pleaser instead of kicking up a fuss.

Now, to be fair they didn't technically know this would be the last but Holland is on record saying they approached it like that anyway so... no matter how you cut it they thought this was a great idea for Lenny... for some reason??

1 minute ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I think so, too. Unfortunately a lot that has been said about Lenny has been done flippantly.

Yeah, and people wonder why I don't think the writers have a high opinion about Lenny. (Or rather don't realise that the things they say doesn't exactly make them sound like they have a high opinion.)

14 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Yes, I have not seen commenting from the showrunners about how they came to this decision. Actually, there has been very little commenting from them at all.

I'd love to have someone grill them on that in an interview! hahaha

[bfm]

1 hour ago, April said:

no matter how you cut it they thought this was a great idea for Lenny... for some reason??

These are the minds that brought you The Boat Kiss, so...

1 hour ago, April said:

Yeah, and people wonder why I don't think the writers have a high opinion about Lenny. (Or rather don't realise that the things they say doesn't exactly make them sound like they have a high opinion.)

I think many think the writers seem to really not like and not care for Lenny, it's just always surprising to realize how much and how much they don't care for some parts of their fandom.

[chucky]

5 minutes ago, bfm said:

These are the minds that brought you The Boat Kiss, so..

Oh they do have minds , but only use them some of the time!

[veejay]

1 hour ago, bfm said:

Oh here they are:

A song came to mind.

"Watch out, you might get what you're after
Cool babies, strange but not a stranger
I'm an ordinary guy
Burning down the house"

Talking Heads - Burning Down the House

[chucky]

6 hours ago, veejay said:

A song came to mind.

"Watch out, you might get what you're after
Cool babies, strange but not a stranger
I'm an ordinary guy
Burning down the house"

Talking Heads - Burning Down the House

Interesting!

[3ku11]

I agree with the sense April is coming from. Lenny have never being written as big planners. I don’t think the issue here is whether Lenny we’ll have kids or not. Or whether Penny gave the wrong impression or not. But the writing and the degree to which they can bend. The criticism past 4 or so seasons. Has been the lack of quality stories. They’ve spent pretty much past 5 seasons, double downing on the gag “they have nothing in common”. So what the heck do they even talk about etc.  This harks back to their decision to impulsely get married. And after years of making no change in story development. Finally they have a major issue. Like having kids. Well how can they expect the audience to just react. When all they do is poke fun at their lack of commonlarities. And “what do they even talk about”. 

Maybe if they put even an ounce of thought into their writing process. But their is a sense they are making it all up as they go along. That was evident with the whole “boat kiss”. I don’t think Penny saying she doesent want kids is on that Level though. I recall in S7 they were regularly making references about “Leonard would never cheat on Penny”. So they must of thought genius. Let’s actually create an imaginary tangent on the timeline that diddnt previously exist! Give that man a pay rise!! 🙄. Where as while they had fleeting conversations. With Penny saying “Yeah maybe one day”. Or “Yeah sure, but I would like to stay thin and have money”. They made it obvious Penny was non commital. Where as no one would ever believe Leonard would cheat. 

So in regards to “Penny-Kid Gate”. I don’t think the episode set in stone the direction they are going to take. I would be thrilled if they have kids. But I expect we’ll get a dream sequence or a flash forward of some kind. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by 3ku11

[Die Zimtzicke]

12 hours ago, bfm said:

Oh here they are:

I must admit that I hate that picture. It was going around as "next time they'll buy the damned cookies" right after a Girl Scout family in our town lost their house, their pets and everything they owned in a fire. I still think of that family every time I see it, even though they moved away long ago.

[chucky]

3 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I agree with the sense April is coming from. Lenny have never being written as big planners. I don’t think the issue here is whether Lenny we’ll have kids or not. Or whether Penny gave the wrong impression or not. But the writing and the degree to which they can bend. The criticism past 4 or so seasons. Has been the lack of quality stories. They’ve spent pretty much past 5 seasons, double downing on the gag “they have nothing in common”. So what the heck do they even talk about etc.  This harks back to their decision to impulsely get married. And after years of making no change in story development. Finally they have a major issue. Like having kids. Well how can they expect the audience to just react. When all they do is poke fun at their lack of commonlarities. And “what do they even talk about”. 

Maybe if they put even an ounce of thought into their writing process. But their is a sense they are making it all up as they go along. That was evident with the whole “boat kiss”. I don’t think Penny saying she doesent want kids is on that Level though. I recall in S7 they were regularly making references about “Leonard would never cheat on Penny”. So they must of thought genius. Let’s actually create an imaginary tangent on the timeline that diddnt previously exist! Give that man a pay rise!! 🙄. Where as while they had fleeting conversations. With Penny saying “Yeah maybe one day”. Or “Yeah sure, but I would like to stay thin and have money”. They made it obvious Penny was non commital. Where as no one would ever believe Leonard would cheat. 

So in regards to “Penny-Kid Gate”. I don’t think the episode set in stone the direction they are going to take. I would be thrilled if they have kids. But I expect we’ll get a dream sequence or a flash forward of some kind. 

Your analysis is perfect. 

[bfm]

3 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I must admit that I hate that picture. It was going around as "next time they'll buy the damned cookies" right after a Girl Scout family in our town lost their house, their pets and everything they owned in a fire. I still think of that family every time I see it, even though they moved away long ago.

Ouch! Terrible use of that meme.

5 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

their decision to impulsely get married. 

You mean after 3 years of proposals and engagement?

5 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I recall in S7 they were regularly making references about “Leonard would never cheat on Penny”. 

Can you give examples?

5 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

With Penny saying “Yeah maybe one day”. Or “Yeah sure, but I would like to stay thin and have money”. 

It's easier to make your point when you add a "maybe" there and ommit an "I want to do all of those things" there.

[3ku11]

2 hours ago, bfm said:

Ouch! Terrible use of that meme.

You mean after 3 years of proposals and engagement?

Can you give examples?

It's easier to make your point when you add a "maybe" there and ommit an "I want to do all of those things" there.

Huh? Why are you continulsly posting confused emojis on my posts. Everyone else clearly seems to artuculate what I am saying. IT is pretty clear. 

1. The got engaged end of S7. They were only engaged for a year. And their was zero planning at all. And they decided to spontaneosly get married in 8x24. After being pushed into it by Sheldon. As for proposals, come on now. They were barley proposals. Penny proposed once drunk. And the other times. Leonard turned her down, as it was not serious. The only proper one was 7x23. 

2. Many examples. They reguarly dropped references. One time Leonard was like "Are you worried I Would ever leave you? Penny laughed. So they were cleary setting it al up. 

3. I Don't see how one can't see. Two conversations that involved no depth what so ever. Where the first one was off Howardettes first pregnancy. And second Penny seemed bla sa about the whole thing. Saying OH yeah but I want to stay thin, and have money etc. Does not scream a woman who is seriousley thinking of having kids with her husband. And Leonard whos half wanted it in 12 years. 

[chucky]

26 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

Huh? Why are you continulsly posting confused emojis on my posts. Everyone else clearly seems to artuculate what I am saying. IT is pretty clear. 

1. The got engaged end of S7. They were only engaged for a year. And their was zero planning at all. And they decided to spontaneosly get married in 8x24. After being pushed into it by Sheldon. As for proposals, come on now. They were barley proposals. Penny proposed once drunk. And the other times. Leonard turned her down, as it was not serious. The only proper one was 7x23. 

2. Many examples. They reguarly dropped references. One time Leonard was like "Are you worried I Would ever leave you? Penny laughed. So they were cleary setting it al up. 

3. I Don't see how one can't see. Two conversations that involved no depth what so ever. Where the first one was off Howardettes first pregnancy. And second Penny seemed bla sa about the whole thing. Saying OH yeah but I want to stay thin, and have money etc. Does not scream a woman who is seriousley thinking of having kids with her husband. And Leonard whos half wanted it in 12 years. 

Agrees!

[bfm]

2 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

Huh? Why are you continulsly posting confused emojis on my posts. Everyone else clearly seems to artuculate what I am saying. IT is pretty clear. 

1. The got engaged end of S7. They were only engaged for a year. And their was zero planning at all. And they decided to spontaneosly get married in 8x24. After being pushed into it by Sheldon. As for proposals, come on now. They were barley proposals. Penny proposed once drunk. And the other times. Leonard turned her down, as it was not serious. The only proper one was 7x23. 

2. Many examples. They reguarly dropped references. One time Leonard was like "Are you worried I Would ever leave you? Penny laughed. So they were cleary setting it al up. 

3. I Don't see how one can't see. Two conversations that involved no depth what so ever. Where the first one was off Howardettes first pregnancy. And second Penny seemed bla sa about the whole thing. Saying OH yeah but I want to stay thin, and have money etc. Does not scream a woman who is seriousley thinking of having kids with her husband. And Leonard whos half wanted it in 12 years. 

1. Spontaneous and impulsive are not the same thing.

2. I don't remember cases of them repeating he won't cheat on her so I asked for examples. What you cite here is not an example for what you claimed.

3. No she was not very enthusiastic but IMO she didn't give hints of doubts either. If you think that she did seem to have doubts and that Leonard appeared to "half want" kids then that's your opinion and you're entitled to it but don't go changing the script. Check the transcripts or the scenes, especially the seaon 9 one. There's a reason before season 12 you didn't see people going around saying Penny doesn't want kids. Maybe one or two people like one or two could also say Raj is going to be with Missy or Marry and Alfred will get married or whatever. It was not what the vast majority concluded.

Edited October 8, 2018 by bfm