[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread

[bfm]

3 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

"People change their mind all the time..."  Sorry.  My wife will be proud.

YES, thank you, that's what I was going to write.

12 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

I think the "Procreation Calculation" episode was written prior to the announcement that season 12 would be the last season.  If there were going to be a 13th season this plot would not have come up again. Since this is the finale season they have  to create a scenario where Penny and Leonard come to an agreement as far as having children. I think the writers now believe this is how the fans want the Lenny story to end.

To me thinking it may not be the last season does not excuse "Procreation". It was compltely unnecessary. If they needed to postpone them having kids there are other ways, there was no need to make Penny suddenly change her mind and show us a broken hearted Leonard.

[Mario D.]

5 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

"People change their mind all the time..."  Sorry.  My wife will be proud.

I stand corrected. If my wife saw what I wrote I think I would have gotten an earful!

3 minutes ago, bfm said:

YES, thank you, that's what I was going to write.

To me thinking it may not be the last season does not excuse "Procreation". It was compltely unnecessary. If they needed to postpone them having kids there are other ways, there was no need to make Penny suddenly change her mind and show us a broken hearted Leonard.

I really do agree with you on the episode, but that is just the way I sensed it came about.  IDK, maybe they were trying to project a "politically correct" statement and Kaley was kind of proud they made an episode that addressed the issue.

[bfm]

4 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

True, Leonard is not an intellectual snob by any means. However, he knows Zack is rather limited. The child could feel like a fish out of water just as Sheldon did when young. He said growing up where he did was hell. It really can be.  I can see that bothering Leonard if it happened. The job of a sperm donor is to stay out of the family's life but Leonard could find that difficult.

I think Penny is very intelligent, 'just not academically inclined'. IMO Sheldon was right when he said that.  Anyone who thinks she's average must be surrounded only by very clever people. While it may be necessary to be in the top two or three percent in order to rise to the academic level of university personnel like our gang, two or three percent of the population make up a lot of people on the planet who are not in the academic world at all.  I'm one of them, as it happens. An average person couldn't do Penny's job. 

Most of us are of average intelligence. I never took an IQ test and now I can't (unless it's something new and different than the common ones, I guess), but I'm probably average, perhaps around the higher part of average range. Neverthelss, I'm finishing my MA now and made the dean's list 4 out of 5 years (still don't know about last year). You don't have to be a genuis or have above average IQ to succeed in academia and other realms of life. I doubt Penny is above the average range, but that doesn't mean anything bad.

As for the first part, Leonard grew up in a family of academics and suffered terribly. I think he will be fine with a person whose not smart raising his bioligical child, as long as he knows the child will be loved and cared for. And while sperm donors are, I guess most times, not involved, they could make a different agreement. 

8 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

I really do agree with you on the episode, but that is just the way I sensed it came about.  IDK, maybe they were trying to project a "politically correct" statement and Kaley was kind of proud they made an episode that addressed the issue.

And then said she wanted Penny to change her mind (that's after saying she doesn't want Lenny to have kids). Kaley seems to go where the wind blows, I don't know what her real opinion is, maybe it just changes frequently.

[chucky]

20 minutes ago, bfm said:

And then said she wanted Penny to change her mind (that's after saying she doesn't want Lenny to have kids). Kaley seems to go where the wind blows, I don't know what her real opinion is, maybe it just changes frequently.

Who knows what anyone really thinks. 

[Zephon75]

2 hours ago, Mario D. said:

What you say is true but I think this plotline will have a resolution and may be the catalyst for Penny to reconsider her decision to not have children.  Women change their mind all the time so this can very well be how Penny decides to have children with Leonard.

While i hope that the plot does get a resolution they, however, do have a habit of just leaving things unexplained especially when it comes to Lenny. At some point I hope we get a catalyst that makes Penny reconsider her decision in not wanting children, however, I really hope it's not this plot. Because if it is it will leave Leonard open to accusations that he only considered being a sperm donor in order to manipulate Penny into changing her mind.  That is not how I want the decision for her to change her mind to come about I want it to come from a happy place. Which is why I still believe they should babysit for Howardette and Penny ends up loving it, that would be a better catalyst to change her mind in my opinion.

[bfm]

7 minutes ago, Zephon75 said:

While i hope that the plot does get a resolution they, however, do have a habit of just leaving things unexplained especially when it comes to Lenny. At some point I hope we get a catalyst that makes Penny reconsider her decision in not wanting children, however, I really hope it's not this plot. Because if it is it will leave Leonard open to accusations that he only considered being a sperm donor in order to manipulate Penny into changing her mind.  That is not how I want the decision for her to change her mind to come about I want it to come from a happy place. Which is why I still believe they should babysit for Howardette and Penny ends up loving it, that would be a better catalyst to change her mind in my opinion.

I agree this is not a good catalyst, but I don't think Leonard could be accused. I think he considers it out of the assumption that he will never have kids with Penny, there is no expectation of her to change her mind.

[Die Zimtzicke]

5 hours ago, Mario D. said:

What you say is true but I think this plotline will have a resolution and may be the catalyst for Penny to reconsider her decision to not have children.  Women change their mind all the time so this can very well be how Penny decides to have children with Leonard.

But if that is what this plotline is then they have majorly screwed with Lenny fans by going the no kids route in the first place. I don't even watch solely for Lenny and I find that kind of offensive.

[3ku11]

31 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

But if that is what this plotline is then they have majorly screwed with Lenny fans by going the no kids route in the first place. I don't even watch solely for Lenny and I find that kind of offensive.

I’m prob in the strong minority here. But if this was the route they were heading. They may as well made Lenny having kids a gray area. I could take 12x03. That did not bother me. I’m probably the only one lol.

I just found it realistic Penny not wanting to surrender her sovereignty and independence. Being the free spirit she is. And having kids is something Leonard half wanted through out the series. I thought they had a frank discussion. And both compromised on the topic. I’m not getting the “it’s not funny”. I don’t think it’s meant to be.

Kids has always been a major issue in their relationship. I’ve maintained in the past I don’t think their was enough cannon established that Penny or Leonard were fully committed to the idea. Other than fleeting conversations. One theory is though that Penny went to a Gynaecologist. And found out she can’t have kids. Whether that’s a relief for her lol. But that could be a way to fix this. 

[SRAM]

We all know how this is going to end, Zack will be reminded in the next episode that Sheldon is the smartest, after all the writers have reminded us of that thousands of times, so he will want Sheldon’s sperm instead of Leonard’s and that will be the last we hear about it.

[Chrismo]

13 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

I’m prob in the strong minority here. But if this was the route they were heading. They may as well made Lenny having kids a gray area. I could take 12x03. That did not bother me. I’m probably the only one lol.

I just found it realistic Penny not wanting to surrender her sovereignty and independence. Being the free spirit she is. And having kids is something Leonard half wanted through out the series. I thought they had a frank discussion. And both compromised on the topic. I’m not getting the “it’s not funny”. I don’t think it’s meant to be.

Kids has always been a major issue in their relationship. I’ve maintained in the past I don’t think their was enough cannon established that Penny or Leonard were fully committed to the idea. Other than fleeting conversations. One theory is though that Penny went to a Gynaecologist. And found out she can’t have kids. Whether that’s a relief for her lol. But that could be a way to fix this. 

The Lenny discussion was basically Penny saying she didn't want kids and Leonard saying okay. The whole discussion ended with Wyatt calling Penny.

[chucky]

1 hour ago, Chrismo said:

The Lenny discussion was basically Penny saying she didn't want kids and Leonard saying okay. The whole discussion ended with Wyatt calling Penny.

That's true. They need an sincere, honest and meaningful conversation on the baby subject.  I don't want to have kids, ain't good enough. Explanations are needed!

Edited December 13, 2018 by chucky

[bfm]

6 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I’m prob in the strong minority here. But if this was the route they were heading. They may as well made Lenny having kids a gray area. I could take 12x03. That did not bother me. I’m probably the only one lol.

I just found it realistic Penny not wanting to surrender her sovereignty and independence. Being the free spirit she is. And having kids is something Leonard half wanted through out the series. I thought they had a frank discussion. And both compromised on the topic. I’m not getting the “it’s not funny”. I don’t think it’s meant to be.

Kids has always been a major issue in their relationship. I’ve maintained in the past I don’t think their was enough cannon established that Penny or Leonard were fully committed to the idea. Other than fleeting conversations. One theory is though that Penny went to a Gynaecologist. And found out she can’t have kids. Whether that’s a relief for her lol. But that could be a way to fix this. 

He imagined having kids with her from day one, named them and stuck to the names years later, and asked her about this at least two times. "Half wanted"... Okay...

One day out of the blue she doesn't want kids, even though she never mentioned any misgivings prior to that and said she wanted them, and she says that to him without much preparation, without softening the blow. "Compromise"... Okay... (You can't really compromise on such a thing)

If anything, this whacko Zack thing is more of a compromise.

Edited December 13, 2018 by bfm

[bfm]

12 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

But if that is what this plotline is then they have majorly screwed with Lenny fans by going the no kids route in the first place. I don't even watch solely for Lenny and I find that kind of offensive.

I could be very upset at the writers disrespecting many fans and having Sheldon (and Amy) make big strides professionally (when we know in the future they will have the children they wanted) while Zack and his wife may have Leonard's bioogical child and he may never get the children he wanted (after his wife suddenly changed her mind when he had zero prior indication it might happen). 

But, I just can't take them seriously anymore. I know these are professional writers who in some respects know what they're doing, but they're just a bunch of goofs to me now. Sometimes they do nice things (and I do recognize there have been cute and fun Lenny moments this season) but other times they do these upsetting or totally whacky things. I rather see it this way than getting upset at the disrespect shown to a big part of the audience. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by bfm

[chucky]

1 hour ago, bfm said:

But, I just can't take them seriously anymore. I know these are professional writers who in some respects know what they're doing, but they're just a bunch of goofs to me now. Sometimes they do nice things (and I do recognize there have been cute and fun Lenny moments this season) but other times they do these upsetting or totally whacky things. I rather see it this way than getting upset at the disrespect shown to a big part of the audience. 

I have to agree! I have lost all respect for this pack on writers. They need to get their heads out of their butts and figure out how they are going to write the remaining episodes! They need to concentrate on giving this cast honest to god good scripts that this cast, crew and fans deserve. I'm still hoping the show does go out with the promised bang and not the whimper that we've been seeing. 

[joyceraye]

17 hours ago, bfm said:

I agree this is not a good catalyst, but I don't think Leonard could be accused. I think he considers it out of the assumption that he will never have kids with Penny, there is no expectation of her to change her mind.

Zarissa won't know that Penny has said she doesn't want children. The situation increases the chances that Leonard could get emotionally involved with theirs. This is a can of worms they won't want. It 's not a good prospect for either marriage.

[chucky]

23 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

Zarissa won't know that Penny has said she doesn't want children. The situation increases the chances that Leonard could get emotionally involved with theirs. This is a can of worms they won't want. It 's not a good prospect for either marriage.

Zarissa? Who knows what these writers have in mind. It could be good results or terrible consequences. I guess we have to see how this plays out.

Edited December 13, 2018 by chucky

[SRAM]

7 hours ago, bfm said:

He imagined having kids with her from day one, named them and stuck to the names years later, and asked her about this at least two times. "Half wanted"... Okay...

One day out of the blue she doesn't want kids, even though she never mentioned any misgivings prior to that and said she wanted them, and she says that to him without much preparation, without softening the blow. "Compromise"... Okay... (You can't really compromise on such a thing)

If anything, this whacko Zack thing is more of a compromise.

This is the way I understand it too, from episode one Leonard has always professed to wanting kids, has even mentioned it to Penny several times, and she said nothing to him indicating she didn’t until this season.  This whole thing with her not wanting kids just seems like another boat kiss, something unexpected that suddenly comes up a couple years later and makes no sense for the character.

[chucky]

12 minutes ago, SRAM said:

This whole thing with her not wanting kids just seems like another boat kiss, something unexpected that suddenly comes up a couple years later and makes no sense for the character.

Lenny should be use to this crap happening to them. It seems whenever something good happens for them, the writers have to crap on their parade. This baby deal, the boat kiss, Sheldon messing up not one but both weddings. All in the name of comedy. I said it before and I'll say it again, "THANK YOU JIM PARSONS"!

Edited December 13, 2018 by chucky

[bfm]

43 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

Zarissa won't know that Penny has said she doesn't want children. The situation increases the chances that Leonard could get emotionally involved with theirs. This is a can of worms they won't want. It 's not a good prospect for either marriage.

Haha nice going with Zarissa

They may not know but I was talking about Leonard's perspective. From his perspective, he won't have children of his own. I agree the whole thing is really messed up. 

9 minutes ago, chucky said:

Lenny should be use to this crap happening to them. It seems whenever something good happens for them, the writers have to crap on their parade. This baby deal, the boat kiss, Sheldon messing up not one but both weddings. All in the name of comedy. I said it before and I'll say it again, "THANK YOU JIM PARSONS"!

While Sheldon's interruptions may be somewhat funny (for some), the boat kiss and the kids issue are not funny at all. I've given up on trying to understand the writers' motives. Was it really that hard to give Lenny a proper final season and go with what's already been established, i.e. both wanting kids? They could have them trying from the middle of the season so that they don't even have to write a pregnant Penny if they are so much against it.

Edited December 13, 2018 by bfm

[chucky]

Just now, bfm said:

Haha nice going with Zarissa

They may not know but I was talking about Leonard's perspective. From his perspective, he won't have children of his own. I agree the whole thing is really messed up. 

While Sheldon's interruptions may be somewhat funny (for some), the boat kiss and the kids issue are not funny at all. I've given up on trying to understand the writers' motives. 

I don't think any of his antics are funny.

[joyceraye]

2 minutes ago, bfm said:

They may not know but I was talking about Leonard's perspective. From his perspective, he won't have children of his own. I agree the whole thing is really messed up. 

Leonard's perspective, yes indeed. I'm imagining that as a big problem. The prospective parents in all probability see things very differently from Leonard. They could be in for a surprise they won't like. We know from what Leonard told Sheldon that even though he has nieces and nephews he cares about his own posterity.

Since we're not going to see what happens in years to come, the ptb will probably write it all away in a couple of episodes if that, but I still think the whole issue is fraught with problems. They'll no doubt treat it as if it had ever happened,  but we won't. They shouldn't raise something like this and just drop it. Fans will forever worry that the fact that it ever came up could cast a shadow over the Lenny marriage. Every time there's a break in broadcasts  up comes  discussion and controversy over the boat kiss.  I'd hazard a guess this subject  will emerge and re-emerge as long as DVDs and TV repeats last.  

 

[chucky]

1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

Leonard's perspective, yes indeed. I'm imagining that as a big problem. The prospective parents in all probability see things very differently from Leonard. They could be in for a surprise they won't like. We know from what Leonard told Sheldon that even though he has nieces and nephews he cares about his own posterity.

Since we're not going to see what happens in years to come, the ptb will probably write it all away in a couple of episodes if that, but I still think the whole issue is fraught with problems. They'll no doubt treat it as if it had ever happened,  but we won't. They shouldn't raise something like this and just drop it. Fans will forever worry that the fact that it ever came up could cast a shadow over the Lenny marriage. Every time there's a break in broadcasts  up comes  discussion and controversy over the boat kiss.  I'd hazard a guess this subject  will emerge and re-emerge as long as DVDs and TV repeats last.  

 

That's an affirmative. If it's not resolved, it will taint the show Not just that issues, but others as well!

[bfm]

4 hours ago, chucky said:

That's an affirmative. If it's not resolved, it will taint the show Not just that issues, but others as well!

Some parts are already tainted for me when I think back of them (because I don't rewatch the show anymore, I stopped doing that after 12×03, with the exception of this year's Halloween episode that I did watch twice). Like the scene after the news of Howardette's first pregnancy, when Leonard asks Penny about them havng children and she says, in a way that does not show hesitation or misgivings, "I'm not in a rush but yeah, sure! Someday", and then he says he thinks they will be amazing parents. Such a cute moment at the time, such a bitter one now. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by bfm

[chucky]

50 minutes ago, bfm said:

Some parts are already tainted for me when I think back of them (because I don't rewatch the show anymore, I stopped doing that after 12×03, with the exception of this year's Halloween episode that I did watch twice). Like the scene after the news of Howardette's first pregnancy, when Leonard asks Penny about them havng children and she says, in a way that does not show hesitation or misgivings, "I'm not in a rush but yeah, sure! Someday", and then he says he thinks they will be amazing parents. Such a cute moment at the time, such a bitter one now. 

Yeah, I agree. I'm surprised that she went from someday to I don't want kids! If the damn writers didn't want Hofstadter kids, why have her say yes, sure someday. Her flip flopping on the pregnancy deal is as ridiculous as the boat kiss! It is all about the writers trying to cause friction in the Hofstadter household.

Edited December 13, 2018 by chucky

[Zephon75]

Okay I've been thinking about how they can turn the abomination of a Lenny plot into a catalyst for Penny changing her mind about wanting kids.

So how about in the next episode it picks with Leonard agreeing to be a sperm donor, Penny doesn't say anything but deep down is upset he's going to do it she just doesn't show it. Later on Leonard is about to leave to go to the clinic to give his sample, He asks Penny if she wants to come with , she refuses still trying to pretend it's not bothering her. But as he's about to open the door, she says "Wait". he turns to look at her and says "What's up?", she finally tells him how she actually feels, and doesn't want him to do it. He tells her they are waiting at the clinic for him what are they going to do, she say she doesn't know before smiling saying she has an idea. Leonard arrives at the clinic and when he sees Zack & Marissa he breaks the news that he has changed his mind, they are obviously upset,however he tells them he has brought someone else to do it instead.  Nowhere they go for a comical scene by having it be Stuart, but I think say Wil Wheaton would be better and When Marissa see him she happily approves of his replacement. Leonard arrives home and Penny asks him how they took it, with him saying they where upset at first but where happy with the replacement. Penny apologises for making him not do it , he says if he honest he didn't really want to do it either. As he doesn't want to father a child he cannot raise but more importantly have a child that isn't with her. Penny hugs him and says thankyou, before telling him she's been thinking , he asks her about what?, she tells him maybe one day she might want his  baby. Leonard looks surprised but happy and says you want to have my baby someday? she smiles before walking then turning to still smiling and says maybe. 

I know what I wrote is silly , but I don't  where the writers are going with this story or if it's going anywhere at all, I have a feeling we'll be more pissed off or upset than happy with whatever conclusion they devise.