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[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread


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46 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

I agree with much of what you comment.  Upon reading through it I have thought of some other instances where Penny hurt Leonard and he should have told her so:  The David Underhill episode was one and the night she drunkenly slept with Leonard after she was pissed at Zack and then told him it was a mistake is two,  the night with Raj will probably always be a sore spot for Leonard,  the episode where they are going to watch Game of Thrones and Penny takes Sheldon's side in the argument,  the Raj/Penny chumminess in the episode where Raj moves in with Lenny, a ridiculous plot if there ever was one. In all these instances Leonard was hurt but still cared for and loved Penny.  He should have told her off in a couple of them but the writers wanted to keep his character likeable.  As for Sheldon he is the same obnoxious, insulting, condescending asshat he has always been and also to still  bring up Penny's sexual history in some remarks is totally disgraceful. Here, also Leonard should absolutely say something to Sheldon along the lines of Penny is now my wife and if you say another disparaging remark to her I will knock your teeth down your throat.......or words to that effect.

I do agree with what you're saying, but i think the reason Leonard didn't do anything is that he goes out of his way to avoid confrontation, now that doesn't mean he won't be confrontational. We know he can be as evidenced 1x06, 3x07, 9x21, he just prefers to avoid it and it's probably all down to how his mother treated him.  He goes out of his way to avoid making people mad at him and confronting Penny on those things would have made her mad at him. Although like I have mentioned he has stood up for himself, he just rarely does he just rather just buckle under.

As for Sheldon and all the derogatory things he says about Penny sexual history or her intelligence, I think it's should be Penny who puts him in his place. But that will never happen and thankfully they've not had him say anything like that in a while. 

As for Raj I've always wished Leonard or Penny would have said something to him about him bringing up that drunken night with Penny It made him look like a douche when he did. Penny has shown everytime it's mentioned that she wasn't happy I just wished she'd have told him to shut up about it or she'll tell everyone what really happened. Although I think Leonard might know and being who he is hasn't let on that he does.

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Just now, SRAM said:

I think Penny did more than that, she just didn’t consult him, she mislead him, something like having kids, or especially not wanting them, is something that should have been discussed before marriage, not after.  Until she was faced with the actual question, in this season, everything she did or said gave Leonard no indication she didn’t want kids, before the marriage, on the contrary her actions and remarks seem to indicate kids were in their future.  I have seen this before in marriages and many of them ended in divorce, this is not something you spring on your spouse after you are married, what Penny did was wrong and for that reason alone I think Leonard has every right to share his seed and seek a little bit of comfort in knowing that there is a child out there that is part of him and he will have love for all his life.  If Penny doesn’t like it fine, she should have made an agreement with him before they were married on how they would handle the children thing, it is too late now so she made her bed and now she should just lie in it.

While I agree with the most of your post, I just don’t understand one thing - how can a person be comfortable knowing that his/her kid is ‘somewhere out there’? IMO, it’s better not to have one, than have and not be able to raise it. At least, this is how I picture Leonard as a father - IMO, he’d most likely adopt a kid and actually BE a dad, than give up his own baby just to carry on his name/continue his line 

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3 hours ago, Mario D. said:

Apparently not!  Like I have said before believe this episode was written before the announcement to end the show. But, that still isn't a good enough excuse. Now because this is the final season they have to correct this situation with care.

It may have been written before the announcement, that season 12 would be the last, but you're right, that's no excuse. They had no reason to think there would be a 13th season. They were at the end of the contract, not for the first time. 

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3 hours ago, Mario D. said:

Apparently not!  Like I have said before believe this episode was written before the announcement to end the show. But, that still isn't a good enough excuse. Now because this is the final season they have to correct this situation with care.

They only write 2-3 weeks out of taping.

The announcement that Season 12 would be the last was made on August 22nd.

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6 hours ago, TBBT78 said:
7 hours ago, hokie3457 said:
What I am afraid of, given the past attitudes and personalities of these characters toward him, is that Leonard being teased by Sheldon and Raj and Howard regarding someone else raising a child with his DNA.  I can picture merciless teasing....Not to mention more teasing of him regarding Penny's refusing to have his child.  I really can see TPTB going in that direction..... 

Oh my goodness I hope not, that sounds horrific...

It’s really a dreadful plot line.

 

Dreadful but not impossible. I wouldn't have put it past them when they were younger. Let's hope they're too mature to do it now, even Sheldon.  Having said that, nothing would surprise me. Poor Leonard.

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4 hours ago, bfm said:

I wouldn't like her to have a kid just because she doesn't want Leonard to love another person. If they end up having a kid I would like Penny to want that kid.

Women who have not wanted a child at all, and women who have children out of obligation only, still tend to say they fall in love with their babies when they are born and wouldn't be without them once they've bonded with them. If it strikes Penny as ridiculous that Zack wants Leonard's child even though she doesn't and goes ahead and has one for Leonard's sake, she will want it when she sees it, if not before. Then she'll feel she might as well carry on, once she is a mother. She could have the three that Raj predicted. She doesn't dislike children. Perhaps after all it's only the idea of being somebody's mother for the rest of her life that she doesn't fancy. She finds the role of being cool Aunt Penny more attractive.

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1 hour ago, chucky said:

I don't know about that. Whether it was TPTB's or Mayim's idea, but IMHO, she was clearly going for the gay relationship with Penny. Trying to video tape Penny changing clothes, not once but twice. Following her into her bedroom and trying to kiss her. Of course behind closed doors, but you get the gist by Penny's reaction.

And I'm saying they explained what their intent was at a Paleyfest and that wasn't it. They just did a piss poor job of what they were going for, I'll grant you but they insisted they weren't going for that. It's the third question in.

 

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13 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

And I'm saying they explained what their intent was at a Paleyfest and that wasn't it. They just did a piss poor job of what they were going for, I'll grant you but they insisted they weren't going for that. It's the third question in.

 

I'm not saying they were. Mayim just seemed to play it that way!

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15 minutes ago, chucky said:

I'm not saying they were. Mayim just seemed to play it that way!

Judged by the way Amy had been in the episodes prior to her gatecrashing girls' night, when she started wanting to make friends with the others especially Penny, I didn't think she played her role 'gay',but rather as 'all girls together' ie  with no need for shyness or excess modesty, the way adolescent girls are ( or perhaps used to be ? ) taught at school. She'd somehow led a sheltered life despite going to colleges. Possibly the way one sees those 'bestie' scenes is a generational thing. Her  tone when she said 'I think a boy likes me' when Stuart asked her out demonstrated her developmental age and what she really wanted.

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9 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

Judged by the way Amy had been in the episodes prior to her gatecrashing girls' night, when she started wanting to make friends with the others especially Penny, I didn't think she played her role 'gay',but rather as 'all girls together' ie  with no need for shyness or excess modesty, the way adolescent girls are ( or perhaps used to be ? ) taught at school. She'd somehow led a sheltered life despite going to colleges. Possibly the way one sees those 'bestie' scenes is a generational thing. Her  tone when she said 'I think a boy likes me' when Stuart asked her out demonstrated her developmental age and what she really wanted.

We just see it differently. Amy trying to video tape Penny, while changing, was a little over the limit. A straight woman wouldn't try to do that not only once but a second time even after being told to stop. Maybe that's normal to you but not to me.

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30 minutes ago, chucky said:

We just see it differently. Amy trying to video tape Penny, while changing, was a little over the limit. A straight woman wouldn't try to do that not only once but a second time even after being told to stop. Maybe that's normal to you but not to me.

We didn't have portable video cameras when I was that age, and here only Her Majesty has a maid of honour - who performs more of a secretarial function. I have no idea whether it's normal in the USA to make a video of wedding preparations. So, if it's not normal to film a bridesmaid trying her dress on, I'll take your word for it. All that was outside my experience. 

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37 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

So, if it's not normal to film a bridesmaid trying her dress on, I'll take your word for it. All that was outside my experience. 

Filming the women trying on the dresses, is something that is normally done.  What isn't normally done is filming the women changing into those dresses, especially if you have to open the door to film it.  That Penny told Amy to stop, and then Amy pushed open the door again, was really creepy.  

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2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

And I'm saying they explained what their intent was at a Paleyfest and that wasn't it. They just did a piss poor job of what they were going for, I'll grant you but they insisted they weren't going for that. It's the third question in.

 Whether or not that was their intent, how it's how it came across to, quite honestly, a significant amount of fandom, along with critics and reviewers.  So, the depiction is on them.  These are the same producers who were surprised by questions about whether Penny and Leonard were going to get divorced.  That wasn't what their intent was either, but that was what was coming across.  Enough that critics and reviewers, not just Lennys, were wondering.    Were the writers so wrapped up in their intent,  that they were completely oblivious of what was actually  being shown on the screen?  

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4 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

no she didn't. She told him she doesn't want kids. So what are we saying. It's okay for Leonard to not consult Penny on a massive decisiom. Because This is Leonards way of evening the score? Penny didn't lie to Leonard. He asked. And she was honest. It's her body. It's her right to not want children. And I understand it's Leonards body too. But my point was. We have two corresponding situations.

Where neither party has discussed major decisions in their marriage with their partner. Thus probably going to be moved. But my point was we can't one instance condemn Penny for "my body my choice". But than Condone Leonard for doing the same thing. I guess all of this is a manifestation of an impulsive wedding and marrige. And not planning their future. They never discussed kids before they wed. Because well it was a spur of the moment Vegas quickie. 

The thing that bothered me in that whole scene was Leonard never asked her why she did not want to have kids. And then he just gave up on the issue too easily. This was a massive decision....for both of them  I am of the belief that marriage is a partnership and major decisions should be done together.  We don't know if they discussed this issue as it was never portrayed but I get the feeling this was something that came over her and not anything she was thinking about for some time.

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19 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

The thing that bothered me in that whole scene was Leonard never asked her why she did not want to have kids. And then he just gave up on the issue too easily.

I was thinking the same thing! He just got upset and left. When he came back he was okay with it. He didn't question her about her reason for not wanting kids.

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1 hour ago, chucky said:

I was thinking the same thing! He just got upset and left. When he came back he was okay with it. He didn't question her about her reason for not wanting kids.

I'm hoping that discussion will be had over the next few episodes in the sperm donor arc. That will give him time to calm down. He was probably too shocked when she told him and he was putting a brave face on it. That was the best strategy at the time to avoid a quarrel. He does need to know her reasons. We've speculated for a few weeks now. Let's see who's right.

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8 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I’m not sure I agree with that. They are in a marriage. If Leonard’s going to make such a massive decision and provide sperm to father a child. He owes it to Penny to at least consult her on it. Too many times Leonard and Penny don’t discuss their issues. It’s the same with adding buffers to their relationship. To avoid their own issues. 

According to the TR they do talk about it, he doesn't make a decision on his own.

7 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I guess all of this is a manifestation of an impulsive wedding and marrige. And not planning their future. They never discussed kids before they wed. Because well it was a spur of the moment Vegas quickie. 

Penny never showed any misgivings or hesitations when the subject came up before marriage (and it did at least twice, Leonard didn't ask directly but if she had any doubts these were perfect opportunities to say so). After marriage she said she wanted kids? While the writers tried to hint that it's their fault for not talking about everything before marriage, what was shown is Penny suddenly having "thoughts" for some weeks (according to what she says to Bernadette) and then deciding she doesn't want to have kids and telling it to Leonard in a way that wasn't even sensitive enough. Leonard really could not have seen it coming.

7 hours ago, chucky said:

I don't know about that. Whether it was TPTB's or Mayim's idea, but IMHO, she was clearly going for the gay relationship with Penny. Trying to video tape Penny changing clothes, not once but twice. Following her into her bedroom and trying to kiss her. Of course behind closed doors, but you get the gist by Penny's reaction.

Mayim doesn't write or direct the show. This is not on her.

28 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

I'm hoping that discussion will be had over the next few episodes in the sperm donor arc. That will give him time to calm down. He was probably too shocked when she told him and he was putting a brave face on it. That was the best strategy at the time to avoid a quarrel. He does need to know her reasons. We've speculated for a few weeks now. Let's see who's right.

The reason may be that she just doesn't have the desire to have kids and thinks this would make her life worse. I suppose this is what Leonard assumed. This may or may not be true.

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1 hour ago, joyceraye said:

I'm hoping that discussion will be had over the next few episodes in the sperm donor arc. That will give him time to calm down. He was probably too shocked when she told him and he was putting a brave face on it. That was the best strategy at the time to avoid a quarrel. He does need to know her reasons. We've speculated for a few weeks now. Let's see who's right.

I can live with that

48 minutes ago, bfm said:

Mayim doesn't write or direct the show. This is not on her.

Doesn't matter. She's the actress. If it wasn't the intent of the writers/directors/producers, then it was an acting choice.

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1 hour ago, chucky said:

Doesn't matter. She's the actress. If it wasn't the intent of the writers/directors/producers, then it was an acting choice.

It seems to have been a misperception of the writers.

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I haven't seen the sperm donor ep, but I wonder if it first occurred to the writers & showrunner as just a nice reference back to the very first scene of the whole series, and then sort of took on a life of its own ?

Edited by JohnPhD
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7 hours ago, bfm said:

It seems to have been a misperception of the writers.

Either or. To me, Amy appeared to show homosexual tendencies early on in Season 4, for whatever reason. Either actors choice or by design by TPTB. I'm glad those changed over the years. Just like the bromance between Raj and Howard. Although the bromance was funny in a way. I will admit that Penny's reactions to Amy's advances were funny!  8)

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While I agree with the most of your post, I just don’t understand one thing - how can a person be comfortable knowing that his/her kid is ‘somewhere out there’? IMO, it’s better not to have one, than have and not be able to raise it. At least, this is how I picture Leonard as a father - IMO, he’d most likely adopt a kid and actually BE a dad, than give up his own baby just to carry on his name/continue his line 


I agree. Although some might be comfortable having their child brought up by somebody, I don’t think Leonard would be. I think it would be far too upsetting for him if he went through with it. My feeling is he won’t and Penny will either have a change of heart or discover she is already pregnant.


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10 hours ago, Tensor said:

Whether or not that was their intent, how it's how it came across to, quite honestly, a significant amount of fandom, along with critics and reviewers.  So, the depiction is on them.  These are the same producers who were surprised by questions about whether Penny and Leonard were going to get divorced.  That wasn't what their intent was either, but that was what was coming across.  Enough that critics and reviewers, not just Lennys, were wondering.    Were the writers so wrapped up in their intent,  that they were completely oblivious of what was actually  being shown on the screen?  

If we're going to talk about questions, that Paleyfest '13 is crucial when thinking about how Dark Lenny started in my opinion. That was the year when the majority of the people coming to the panel did not ask  about Lenny. They asked about Sheldon, Amy and Shamy, one after another. Seeing that, I truly think that's why the producers decided to be done with Lenny, which no one was asking about, and concentrate on their new storylines, which people WERE asking about.

 

8 hours ago, bfm said:

The reason may be that she just doesn't have the desire to have kids and thinks this would make her life worse.

There have been several times that Penny seems to have been struck with the idea that she is growing older as I see it. The Valentine ep when she couldn't charm the younger guy into giving her a table, her comments about not putting her body through that, and about wanting to stay thin...maybe she's just decided that she's too old for that?

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Just now, Die Zimtzicke said:

There have been several times that Penny seems to have been struck with the idea that she is growing older as I see it. The Valentine ep when she couldn't charm the younger guy into giving her a table, her comments about not putting her body through that, and about wanting to stay thin...maybe she's just decided that she's too old for that?

But Penny is like 33... I think it’s not about age 🤔

Edited by smartandbeautiful
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