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[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread


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2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

They changed a lot more than the actress from that pilot. I don't know how Katie would have been once they sorted out what they wanted from the character.

To me, Kaley was the better fit!

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I said in the Lenny Thread that I liked the episode, but it left me wanting more. I watched it again and realize that it left me sad. After all these years and after all they have been through together, Leonard still lives in fear of losing Penny. Stuart asks, "At some point the fear of losing her will go away?' and Leonard answers, "I will let you know."

This is how the writers write them, this is how the writers see the relationship, and they see humor in the imbalance in the relationship dynamic and in Leonard's chronic insecurity. They've hit on Penny's insecurities in the past too, but they almost always portray her as the confident, sometimes almost cocky half of the pair.

It didn't make me laugh. It made me sigh and think she's as lucky to have you as you are to have her, Leonard. Relax. Enjoy it and give Penny a little more credit. 

I wish the writers would.

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11 minutes ago, Strawberry PopTart Fan said:

I said in the Lenny Thread that I liked the episode, but it left me wanting more. I watched it again and realize that it left me sad. After all these years and after all they have been through together, Leonard still lives in fear of losing Penny. Stuart asks, "At some point the fear of losing her will go away?' and Leonard answers, "I will let you know."

This is how the writers write them, this is how the writers see the relationship, and they see humor in the imbalance in the relationship dynamic and in Leonard's chronic insecurity. They've hit on Penny's insecurities in the past too, but they almost always portray her as the confident, sometimes almost cocky half of the pair.

It didn't make me laugh. It made me sigh and think she's as lucky to have you as you are to have her, Leonard. Relax. Enjoy it and give Penny a little more credit. 

I wish the writers would.

I’m not too happy about it either but I understand it is ingrained into Leonard’s character, he did not grow up believing he would be first at anything, either academically, because of his mother, or socially because of his peers at school.  So having the cheerleader in love and married to him and getting picked first in a paintball game are very alien to him.  His upbringing and mother damaged him deeply and it is real testimony to his strength of character and compassion that he didn’t turn out to be a serial killer.  You know it would be cute and funny if in one of the remaining episodes we had a plot where Penny was really attentive to Leonard for a whole day and when finally Leonard asks her why she is being like that she tells him it is because that day was “Leonard’s Day” and she just wanted to celebrate it because she loves him.

 

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3 minutes ago, SRAM said:

I’m not too happy about it either but I understand it is ingrained into Leonard’s character, he did not grow up believing he would be first at anything, either academically, because of his mother, or socially because of his peers at school.  So having the cheerleader in love and married to him and getting picked first in a paintball game are very alien to him.  His upbringing and mother damaged him deeply and it is real testimony to his strength of character and compassion that he didn’t turn out to be a serial killer.  You know it would be cute and funny if in one of the remaining episodes we had a plot where Penny was really attentive to Leonard for a whole day and when finally Leonard asks her why she is being like that she tells him it is because that day was “Leonard’s Day” and she just wanted to celebrate it because she loves him.

 

Yeah. I know this is who Leonard is and I love him because he's a great guy  who has accomplished so much in spite of many obstacles, especially Beverly.  I think it really got to me because we're so close to the end and  I want them to be in a great place together when the show wraps up.  I like the idea of Penny making a fuss over him "just because she loves him" with no sarcasm or eye-rolling , and a happy grin and a little nod from Leonard because he knows she loves him and it's nice to have a special reminder now and then.

 

She loves me.jpg

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50 minutes ago, Strawberry PopTart Fan said:

I said in the Lenny Thread that I liked the episode, but it left me wanting more. I watched it again and realize that it left me sad. After all these years and after all they have been through together, Leonard still lives in fear of losing Penny. Stuart asks, "At some point the fear of losing her will go away?' and Leonard answers, "I will let you know."

This is how the writers write them, this is how the writers see the relationship, and they see humor in the imbalance in the relationship dynamic and in Leonard's chronic insecurity. They've hit on Penny's insecurities in the past too, but they almost always portray her as the confident, sometimes almost cocky half of the pair.

It didn't make me laugh. It made me sigh and think she's as lucky to have you as you are to have her, Leonard. Relax. Enjoy it and give Penny a little more credit. 

I wish the writers would.

It is such a double edged sword the way they are written. We get examples and hints now and then about the depth of Penny’s love of her husband. I can’t figure out her grin at the end of the scene when he told Stuart he’d let him know.  Was it “awww. He’s so cute”. Was it “that’s right buddy boy.i’ve got You right where I want you” (to me the least believable)? Or “God! I love him!”?

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1 hour ago, Strawberry PopTart Fan said:

I said in the Lenny Thread that I liked the episode, but it left me wanting more. I watched it again and realize that it left me sad. After all these years and after all they have been through together, Leonard still lives in fear of losing Penny. Stuart asks, "At some point the fear of losing her will go away?' and Leonard answers, "I will let you know."

This is how the writers write them, this is how the writers see the relationship, and they see humor in the imbalance in the relationship dynamic and in Leonard's chronic insecurity. They've hit on Penny's insecurities in the past too, but they almost always portray her as the confident, sometimes almost cocky half of the pair.

It didn't make me laugh. It made me sigh and think she's as lucky to have you as you are to have her, Leonard. Relax. Enjoy it and give Penny a little more credit. 

I wish the writers would.

I mostly agree with @SRAM about Leonard, and I liked that he still fears losing the woman he loves. However, I do relate to this unsatisfaction, and I think what you wrote about Penny is more the issue for me. I feel like she's been "2D-ed" lately. This is not new, in fact I think this is a big problem in the writing of Penny throughout the whole show, but I feel it more lately because there have been less exceptions to it in latest years. I mentioned it as one of the things that bothered me after 12×03. I feel like they tend to write Penny from an "outside" perspective, not really trying to builed this character its own perspective, its own inner world, but writing it as an "other" - the cheerleader, the hot girl, the popular girl etc. They write this type that is confident and cocky and deserves the world, this type who can change serious opinions very quickly and out of the blue, that can come and complain to its partner with not much basis (suddenly he doesn't put much effort, suddenly he's the one at fault for them living with Sheldon) or be very snarky and expect everything to be fine. In earlier seasons we got to see her in moments of vulnerability, and admitting fears and insecurities. I could see her as someone who has her vulnerabilities but hides them behind a tough image. This character is much more relatable and this puts the Lenny relationship in a different light. This can be said to justify her behavior in later seasons too, but when this other side of her is never shown it is hard to think of her this way.

If, for example, in this episode we had her perhaps denying being scared of messing up but then nodding gently afer Leonard said the fear of losing your loved one is still there, I think that would have made a significant difference.

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I look at that smile and the whole scene overall in different ways. First, I just see it as the common Kaley the actor who throughout the series from day one reacts to lines by laughing or smiling and TPTB just leave it in.

Then it’s also that smug (not sure that’s the right word) sense of satisfaction Penny the character gets when she gets some acknowledgement that others worship ( again probably too strong a word) her, like during that Amy infatuation period, or when she dismissed that Leonard would cheat on her, the producer of Apeist made the too hot for you comment, the wear her down crap, the I’m getting free drinks looking like this stuff. It almost looked like “ha, I can get away with stuff cos he’s still worried about me dumping him”. That’s the dark thought that has me linking back to the no kids conversation earlier in season. Leonard briefly got mad but then Penny put on that whole “Oh Leonard, don’t be mad, you’re OK with me deciding aren’t you?” Vibe and he was “suddenly OK” with it. It was different to the Valentine’s Day episode when he was proactive in giving her control over the proposal. This time on the no kids thing was Leonard conceding reluctantly IMHO.

Which then leads into next week and hopefully beyond and the sperm donor decision. Does Leonard admit he’s not OK with having no kids and this his way of actually getting what he wants for a change, does he relent again to another Penny “Oh Leonard don’t be like that” and settle for homeostasis or do we get the often played out Story of Penny being insecure about big decisions and risks and changing her mind because Leonard will as always be there as her strength and help her be a mum? Stay tuned.

( man, when did I become a Dark Lenny? I’ve always been the positive one. I still believe the smile is just a Kaley reaction)


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https://screenrant.com/big-bang-theory-leonard-no-kids-penny/

 

“As revealed in "The Paintball Scattering," Leonard is still afraid that Penny might walk out of his life any minute - an admission he made to Stuart (Kevin Sussman) as the comic book shop owner found himself in a rough spot with his budding romance with girlfriend Denise (Lauren Lapkus) during the gang's paintball game. The two, who both think they're in relationships with women who are out of their leagues, bonded over the fear that their respective ladies will leave them if they make the slightest mistake. For Stuart, he's afraid that moving in with Denise will mess up the easy dynamic they've established, while Leonard is terrified that if he pushes Penny to do something she doesn't want (like having a kid), she could decide to leave him.”

 

“In hindsight, this is such a sad notion. The Big Bang Theory has time and again reinforced the idea that Leonard "lucked out" when it comes to Penny, as if he doesn't have anything to offer in their relationship. This mentality is so embedded in his mind that even though he clearly wanted to have a family, he decided to compromise right away, not even trying to convince his wife due to his fear that pushing her might result in him being left alone.”

 

I concur tptb seem to still playing on the notion Leonard lucked out scoring Penny. Despite the fact you take away Penny’s physical characteristics she really offers nothing more to their relationship. I don’t mean that as a criticism of Penny. She’s kind, she’s loyal, and feriousley passionate about Leonard. Maybe sometimes that does not come across that way. Leonard is still very insecure, and clearly lacks self worth. To the point he has decided to not have kids. Out of the fear of loosing Penny. 

 

 

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Personally, right now I don't how to take Penny's reactions. She acts so in love with her husband, then starts taking Sheldon's side in arguments with Leonard. Then accuse him of taking her for granted and taking Amy on that  spa weekend. Then wanting a relationship agreement. How about the getting pizza for her and Leonard then sharing it with Sheldon when she got jealous. Don't get me started with that crap when Raj was living with them. I don't think I've seen tender moments between Lenny since Episode 10/1. I maybe wrong about the 10/1 thing. I've seen more tenderness between Raj/Cinnamon than Lenny. Who knows, maybe she's not totally over "the boat kiss"!

4 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

https://screenrant.com/big-bang-theory-leonard-no-kids-penny/

 

“As revealed in "The Paintball Scattering," Leonard is still afraid that Penny might walk out of his life any minute - an admission he made to Stuart (Kevin Sussman) as the comic book shop owner found himself in a rough spot with his budding romance with girlfriend Denise (Lauren Lapkus) during the gang's paintball game. The two, who both think they're in relationships with women who are out of their leagues, bonded over the fear that their respective ladies will leave them if they make the slightest mistake. For Stuart, he's afraid that moving in with Denise will mess up the easy dynamic they've established, while Leonard is terrified that if he pushes Penny to do something she doesn't want (like having a kid), she could decide to leave him.”

 

“In hindsight, this is such a sad notion. The Big Bang Theory has time and again reinforced the idea that Leonard "lucked out" when it comes to Penny, as if he doesn't have anything to offer in their relationship. This mentality is so embedded in his mind that even though he clearly wanted to have a family, he decided to compromise right away, not even trying to convince his wife due to his fear that pushing her might result in him being left alone.”

 

I concur tptb seem to still playing on the notion Leonard lucked out scoring Penny. Despite the fact you take away Penny’s physical characteristics she really offers nothing more to their relationship. I don’t mean that as a criticism of Penny. She’s kinda, she’s loyal, and feriousley passionate about Leonard. Maybe sometimes that does not come across that way. Leonard is still very insecure, and clearly lacks self worth. To the point he has decided to not have kids. Out of the fear of loosing Penny. 

 

 

Wow! That's an amazing conception and I totally agree!

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18 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

https://screenrant.com/big-bang-theory-leonard-no-kids-penny/

 

“As revealed in "The Paintball Scattering," Leonard is still afraid that Penny might walk out of his life any minute - an admission he made to Stuart (Kevin Sussman) as the comic book shop owner found himself in a rough spot with his budding romance with girlfriend Denise (Lauren Lapkus) during the gang's paintball game. The two, who both think they're in relationships with women who are out of their leagues, bonded over the fear that their respective ladies will leave them if they make the slightest mistake. For Stuart, he's afraid that moving in with Denise will mess up the easy dynamic they've established, while Leonard is terrified that if he pushes Penny to do something she doesn't want (like having a kid), she could decide to leave him.”

 

“In hindsight, this is such a sad notion. The Big Bang Theory has time and again reinforced the idea that Leonard "lucked out" when it comes to Penny, as if he doesn't have anything to offer in their relationship. This mentality is so embedded in his mind that even though he clearly wanted to have a family, he decided to compromise right away, not even trying to convince his wife due to his fear that pushing her might result in him being left alone.”

 

I concur tptb seem to still playing on the notion Leonard lucked out scoring Penny. Despite the fact you take away Penny’s physical characteristics she really offers nothing more to their relationship. I don’t mean that as a criticism of Penny. She’s kind, she’s loyal, and feriousley passionate about Leonard. Maybe sometimes that does not come across that way. Leonard is still very insecure, and clearly lacks self worth. To the point he has decided to not have kids. Out of the fear of loosing Penny. 

 

 

"In hindsight, this is such a sad notion...("that if he pushes Penny to do something she doesn't want she could decide to leave him.") It's interesting that this article uses the word "sad" the same word I used. It took me a day to identify what I was feeling after the episode (which I thought was good in so many ways and really liked). I was sighing on and off all day and when I watched again I realized I  was sad for Leonard and Penny, the couple I've been rooting for from day 1. They were still cute as can be together, they had planned a great group event together, they exchanged amused looks when with Shamy, they were having fun, they were the leaders of their social group.....but Leonard always lives with the fear of losing Penny.

I guess I'll just take Itwasdestined's advice. I'll stay tuned and buckle up for the rest of the ride.

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53 minutes ago, chucky said:

Personally, right now I don't how to take Penny's reactions. She acts so in love with her husband, then starts taking Sheldon's side in arguments with Leonard. Then accuse him of taking her for granted and taking Amy on that  spa weekend. Then wanting a relationship agreement. How about the getting pizza for her and Leonard then sharing it with Sheldon when she got jealous. Don't get me started with that crap when Raj was living with them. I don't think I've seen tender moments between Lenny since Episode 10/1. I maybe wrong about the 10/1 thing. I've seen more tenderness between Raj/Cinnamon than Lenny. Who knows, maybe she's not totally over "the boat kiss"!

Wow! That's an amazing conception and I totally agree!

I don’t think that’s true. In the Halloween episode this season they were very intimate and touchy. Last season lots of touching. Don’t see how she is taking Sheldon sides in arguments. Can’t recall a time this season where Sheldon was involved in Lenny’s stories. They teamed up against him in the Tenancy episode. 

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1 hour ago, Itwasdestined said:

I look at that smile and the whole scene overall in different ways. First, I just see it as the common Kaley the actor who throughout the series from day one reacts to lines by laughing or smiling and TPTB just leave it in.

Then it’s also that smug (not sure that’s the right word) sense of satisfaction Penny the character gets when she gets some acknowledgement that others worship ( again probably too strong a word) her, like during that Amy infatuation period, or when she dismissed that Leonard would cheat on her, the producer of Apeist made the too hot for you comment, the wear her down crap, the I’m getting free drinks looking like this stuff. It almost looked like “ha, I can get away with stuff cos he’s still worried about me dumping him”. That’s the dark thought that has me linking back to the no kids conversation earlier in season. Leonard briefly got mad but then Penny put on that whole “Oh Leonard, don’t be mad, you’re OK with me deciding aren’t you?” Vibe and he was “suddenly OK” with it. It was different to the Valentine’s Day episode when he was proactive in giving her control over the proposal. This time on the no kids thing was Leonard conceding reluctantly IMHO.

Which then leads into next week and hopefully beyond and the sperm donor decision. Does Leonard admit he’s not OK with having no kids and this his way of actually getting what he wants for a change, does he relent again to another Penny “Oh Leonard don’t be like that” and settle for homeostasis or do we get the often played out Story of Penny being insecure about big decisions and risks and changing her mind because Leonard will as always be there as her strength and help her be a mum? Stay tuned.

( man, when did I become a Dark Lenny? I’ve always been the positive one. I still believe the smile is just a Kaley reactionemoji12.png)


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I agree Leonard fearing losing Penny was probably the biggest reason for him relenting (which was still way too fast to be realistic). However, I would like to think he has other reasons, like not wanting to force Penny into a life she doesn't want (even though that means he has to live a life that he is not all satisfied about...) and not wanting his child to have a mother who does not want to be their mother, as he knows all too well what it is to have a mother who is (at the very least) not interested in you. 

What happened after Penny dropped the no-kids bomb in 12×03 is also a good example of 2D-ed Penny IMO. Leonard "recovered" wayyy too fast, IMO, but at least we saw his pain and fear. Penny? IMO she didn't seem very scared to lose Leonard, not before, not during and not after she told him. She just seemed to feel discomfort because it wasn't a nice thing to tell him and he was upset, but to me it felt like she knew it will pass. Where is the Penny that was afraid Leonard would leave her for a smarter woman, even after they got married (which was after many years of knowing each other and being in a relationship)? She also told him in quite an insensitive way, without much preparation, and went on to make distasteful jokes very quickly (and she knew it was in bad taste). UGH sorry for ranting, whenever I think of 12×03 I just can't.

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54 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

I don’t think that’s true. In the Halloween episode this season they were very intimate and touchy. Last season lots of touching. Don’t see how she is taking Sheldon sides in arguments. Can’t recall a time this season where Sheldon was involved in Lenny’s stories. They teamed up against him in the Tenancy episode. 

You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want, That's life!

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I think the writers are bored and have lost their creativity since the last 3-5 seasons.

As for Lenny, I agree with most of the posters here. TPTB don't seem to me to be able to deviate from their complacent fixation on a main character. The dissolution of the formerly successful structure of an ensemble comedy into a weary romantic comedy is illustrated by the example of Leonard and Penny's friendship. The authors cannot credibly convey a necessary thematic combination.
It now seems that the writers want to continue a new kind of "do they or don't they" as Lenny's eternal trademark with the cheapest effort. No consistency or credibility remains visible, not least because no serious explanations are given for our characters in longer dialogues. In addition there are the usual choked clichés from times long gone.
How true, a great pleasure for all involved parties. The rescue only approaches through a big fixation (of the elevator). Truly a last hurrah!

I'm weary too, but I have a lot of remaining preference for these characters, so I'll have to endure it.

nw_204.gif.41da69f6d570afe74ad1a326b966b729.gif

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17 hours ago, SRAM said:

I’m not too happy about it either but I understand it is ingrained into Leonard’s character, he did not grow up believing he would be first at anything, either academically, because of his mother, or socially because of his peers at school.  So having the cheerleader in love and married to him and getting picked first in a paintball game are very alien to him.  His upbringing and mother damaged him deeply and it is real testimony to his strength of character and compassion that he didn’t turn out to be a serial killer.  You know it would be cute and funny if in one of the remaining episodes we had a plot where Penny was really attentive to Leonard for a whole day and when finally Leonard asks her why she is being like that she tells him it is because that day was “Leonard’s Day” and she just wanted to celebrate it because she loves him.

 

That would be a perfect episode indeed!

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The Show is heading for a very sad ending for Lenny in my opinion.  While TPTB seem to be rushing for some kind of ending for Sheldon and Shamy, the whole Lenny story seems to be left out there hanging, which is sad because theirs is the story that began with the beginning of the show.  Leonard did get the girl but there will always be that sense that he will not be able to keep her, at least in his mind, plus he never seems to get from under Sheldon’s shadow and never seems to have closure with his family, he really is becoming a tragic figure.  Penny never obtains her dream, has to work at a job she hates and her actions, like being snarky with Leonard and not wanting kids with him, seem to support his fears that she is keeping herself not dependent enough on him so that she could leave later, without much problem, like he fears.  To me this is not the way to end a popular show, that had a good 12 year run, by leaving the couple that has been there from day one with such an unresolved future and no story closure.

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24 minutes ago, SRAM said:

The Show is heading for a very sad ending for Lenny in my opinion.  While TPTB seem to be rushing for some kind of ending for Sheldon and Shamy, the whole Lenny story seems to be left out there hanging, which is sad because theirs is the story that began with the beginning of the show.  Leonard did get the girl but there will always be that sense that he will not be able to keep her, at least in his mind, plus he never seems to get from under Sheldon’s shadow and never seems to have closure with his family, he really is becoming a tragic figure.  Penny never obtains her dream, has to work at a job she hates and her actions, like being snarky with Leonard and not wanting kids with him, seem to support his fears that she is keeping herself not dependent enough on him so that she could leave later, without much problem, like he fears.  To me this is not the way to end a popular show, that had a good 12 year run, by leaving the couple that has been there from day one with such an unresolved future and no story closure.

Sadly I can't disagree with you, it really looks like we don't gonna get any closure on Lenny's stories.

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22 hours ago, Strawberry PopTart Fan said:

I said in the Lenny Thread that I liked the episode, but it left me wanting more. I watched it again and realize that it left me sad. After all these years and after all they have been through together, Leonard still lives in fear of losing Penny. Stuart asks, "At some point the fear of losing her will go away?' and Leonard answers, "I will let you know."

This is how the writers write them, this is how the writers see the relationship, and they see humor in the imbalance in the relationship dynamic and in Leonard's chronic insecurity. They've hit on Penny's insecurities in the past too, but they almost always portray her as the confident, sometimes almost cocky half of the pair.

It didn't make me laugh. It made me sigh and think she's as lucky to have you as you are to have her, Leonard. Relax. Enjoy it and give Penny a little more credit. 

I wish the writers would.

Looking back on that scene, yeah it was kind of sad in a way. But seeing how Penny reacted with her warm and loving smile showed how she really feels about him.  I think he truly is the love of her life.

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20 hours ago, Itwasdestined said:

I look at that smile and the whole scene overall in different ways. First, I just see it as the common Kaley the actor who throughout the series from day one reacts to lines by laughing or smiling and TPTB just leave it in.

Then it’s also that smug (not sure that’s the right word) sense of satisfaction Penny the character gets when she gets some acknowledgement that others worship ( again probably too strong a word) her, like during that Amy infatuation period, or when she dismissed that Leonard would cheat on her, the producer of Apeist made the too hot for you comment, the wear her down crap, the I’m getting free drinks looking like this stuff. It almost looked like “ha, I can get away with stuff cos he’s still worried about me dumping him”. That’s the dark thought that has me linking back to the no kids conversation earlier in season. Leonard briefly got mad but then Penny put on that whole “Oh Leonard, don’t be mad, you’re OK with me deciding aren’t you?” Vibe and he was “suddenly OK” with it. It was different to the Valentine’s Day episode when he was proactive in giving her control over the proposal. This time on the no kids thing was Leonard conceding reluctantly IMHO.

Which then leads into next week and hopefully beyond and the sperm donor decision. Does Leonard admit he’s not OK with having no kids and this his way of actually getting what he wants for a change, does he relent again to another Penny “Oh Leonard don’t be like that” and settle for homeostasis or do we get the often played out Story of Penny being insecure about big decisions and risks and changing her mind because Leonard will as always be there as her strength and help her be a mum? Stay tuned.

( man, when did I become a Dark Lenny? I’ve always been the positive one. I still believe the smile is just a Kaley reactionemoji12.png)


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There might be some merit to your analysis of Penny's warm smile at the end of that scene.  It very well can be Kaley's acting skills and more deeply how she feels about the character. I recall many interviews with Kaley  how she expressed that her dream was for Penny and Leonard to marry.  And with this being the final season I cannot see her wavering on that feeling.  However, I do believe that her insecurity or non-committment on big decisions is the factor in telling Leonard she does not want children.  I could be wrong, but this sperm donor arc will be the catalyst for her to change her mind on kids. I just feel that if Leonard decides to donate his sperm it will come to a head and she will breakdown. I also think that Leonard will reconsider and not go through with it thus setting the stage for a real genuine sit-down with each other to hash all this out.  IDK, this could be overly optimistic at this point but what have we got left with Lenny?

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I think season 4 shows that even though they always make it seem the other way around, if Lenny ever break up Penny will be the one that will fare worse.

But I don't see this happening, them breaking up or potentially breaking up. I do have this last slight little shread of leftover trust to believe the writers will at least keep them together and claim they're happy. Will there be enough to make this happiness believable, and not just lip-service (i.e., "Penny likes her job")? That's a whole other thing.

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27 minutes ago, bfm said:

I think season 4 shows that even though they always make it seem the other way around, if Lenny ever break up Penny will be the one that will fare worse.

But I don't see this happening, them breaking up or potentially breaking up. I do have this last slight little shred of leftover trust to believe the writers will at least keep them together and claim they're happy. Will there be enough to make this happiness believable, and not just lip-service (i.e., "Penny likes her job")? That's a whole other thing.

They won't break up. Banter about the marriage or relationship  is not at all unusual. It's possible some of us take lines such as ' He wore me down',' I can still beg', and 'I'll let you know' far too seriously. It's much more likely to be intended as a running joke. My godparents used to say they only wanted a tennis partner for the mixed doubles. I once went out with an American I knew from finding ourselves at the same coffee bar several times. He used to say, ' I found her in a bar' when asked how we'd met.

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8 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

They won't break up. Banter about the marriage or relationship  is not at all unusual. It's possible some of us take lines such as ' He wore me down',' I can still beg', and 'I'll let you know' far too seriously. It's much more likely to be intended as a running joke. My godparents used to say they only wanted a tennis partner for the mixed doubles. I once went out with an American I knew from finding ourselves at the same coffee bar several times. He used to say, ' I found her in a bar' when asked how we'd met.

Yeah I know this is meant as a joke, I was reacting to earlier posts discussing this very hypothetical option, just didn't quote one because there were a bunch.

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2 hours ago, SRAM said:

The Show is heading for a very sad ending for Lenny in my opinion.  While TPTB seem to be rushing for some kind of ending for Sheldon and Shamy, the whole Lenny story seems to be left out there hanging, which is sad because theirs is the story that began with the beginning of the show.  Leonard did get the girl but there will always be that sense that he will not be able to keep her, at least in his mind, plus he never seems to get from under Sheldon’s shadow and never seems to have closure with his family, he really is becoming a tragic figure.  Penny never obtains her dream, has to work at a job she hates and her actions, like being snarky with Leonard and not wanting kids with him, seem to support his fears that she is keeping herself not dependent enough on him so that she could leave later, without much problem, like he fears.  To me this is not the way to end a popular show, that had a good 12 year run, by leaving the couple that has been there from day one with such an unresolved future and no story closure.

I don't think her not wanting kids has anything to do with not wanting to be dependent on Leonard. I don't doubt that she loves him, we just don't get to see this, together with her more vulnerable side, enough. JMO.

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23 hours ago, bfm said:

@SRAM I think what you wrote about Penny is more the issue for me. I feel like she's been "2D-ed" lately. This is not new, in fact I think this is a big problem in the writing of Penny throughout the whole show, but I feel it more lately because there have been less exceptions to it in latest years. I mentioned it as one of the things that bothered me after 12×03. I feel like they tend to write Penny from an "outside" perspective, not really trying to builed this character its own perspective, its own inner world, but writing it as an "other" - the cheerleader, the hot girl, the popular girl etc. They write this type that is confident and cocky and deserves the world, this type who can change serious opinions very quickly and out of the blue, that can come and complain to its partner with not much basis (suddenly he doesn't put much effort, suddenly he's the one at fault for them living with Sheldon) or be very snarky and expect everything to be fine. In earlier seasons we got to see her in moments of vulnerability, and admitting fears and insecurities. I could see her as someone who has her vulnerabilities but hides them behind a tough image. This character is much more relatable and this puts the Lenny relationship in a different light. This can be said to justify her behavior in later seasons too, but when this other side of her is never shown it is hard to think of her this way.

If, for example, in this episode we had her perhaps denying being scared of messing up but then nodding gently afer Leonard said the fear of losing your loved one is still there, I think that would have made a significant difference.

This is how the showrunners and writers have lowered the quality by not putting the effort into Penny. In the classic seasons, Penny wasw the only truly 3-dimensional female character. This was because the writers understood how to use KC's brilliant acting ability, so that Penny was like a real person. Amy, in contrast, is now and always has been 2-D, a character with no inner life.  There's only one actress of KC's quality in the cast (can't think of one in any other sitcom now running, come to that). And now her talent is wasted.

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