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[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread


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3 hours ago, bfm said:

I generally don't post anymore since I've decided to stop watching this show, at least for the time being, but I wanted to respond to (more follow up) this post because it mentioned the thing that bothers me most about this whole no Lenny kids thing. I am quoting this in Dark Lenny to spare those who don't want to read such a negative post. Yup. Very negative here. You've been warned, please do not read if you don't like these kind of posts. I don't want to upset anyone.

Many things bother me about this plot/story/arc/whatever, but the "honor" for most bothering goes to what Jonny mentioned here: Leonard and Penny are NOT on the same page. To me, "The Donation Oscillation" showed it very clearly - the only thimg Penny mentioned as a reason to regret her decision was not wanting to disappoint her husband and her father, which means she doesn't want kids; Leonard was willing to donate sperm for the chance to pass his genes, and then felt a lot of pain at the thought of not raising the cold, which means he wants to raise kids, to be a father. They can make him change his mind, but I think with all that we've seen and with so little left, to me it would be laughable (and not in the way this show is supposed to be). Hokus Pocus Leonard doesn't want kids! Just like they did with Penny, Hokus Pocus she doesn't want kids! 

As it is, their fate seems somewhat tragic. Leonard has to give up on something he really wants in life in order to be with Penny. He will have her, which is wonderful for him, but he will have to watch his friends grow their children, go through things he wanted to go through but never will. This is a very big sacrifice. It may be romantic, but do we really need to see Leonard sacrificing in romance's sake again? We had seen this all along (also, this makes Penny seem like a trophy again, don't need this). Penny will have to live with guilt. I'm not on any way saying she should have kids out of guilt! Absolutely not! But she will live with guilt. 

The question that I cannot answer for the life of me is WHY. Why did the writers do that? I cannot think of a reason that would make me think this is worth it. It would be totally different if this were a sappy drama, but it isn't. It is supposed to be a feel-good sitcom. So why have characters get their hearts broken, and have to live the rest of their lives with such burden? Just because they had 2 pregnancy plots? Just because this is different? Juat to keep fans on edge? Just because some group if women who don't want kids suggested it in a letter? They probably did not consider Penny's previous stance and how it fits the character, just noticed she didn't have kids and saw it as an opportunity. IMO, the writers who are supposed to think of their characters, the story they've told and what their show is supposed to be and go by that instead of by external factors that IMO do not justify this by any means. Even if they have Penny change her mind I don't see why it would be worth it, and there will be other problems with that (i.e, the message that women who don't want kids change their minds eventually, like two characters in this show).

I also think they missed a chance to give Penny emotional growth, which would fit it being the last season. Thankfully they are giving her career development, but emotionally? She hasn't grown in a while. In fact, "The Donation Oscillation" had her regress. Instead they could have shown the former(?) commitment phobe make the ultimate commitment to someone and have and raise kids with him, something so intimate and important that will connect them for life, even if they got divorce (not saying that they will, just hypothetically; in this scenario Penny never changed her mind into not wanting kids).

I think 12×03 was the worst decision the writers have made in the entire show (well, at least for now, they still have time to top it). IMO, it is such a shame to have the show go like this.

I never thought I would decide to stop watching, but right now I feel that I've made the right decision. I used to like this show so much, but this season is just too much for me. At least they made saying goodbye much easier.

Bit of an over estimation. NO where near as bad as 8x24. 

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Bit of an over estimation. NO where near as bad as 8x24. 

Disagree. Concocted boat kiss didn’t even stop Penny from still marrying Leonard as planned. Trauma was over in a few episodes and they moved on to a happy marriage, never to speak of it again

Concocted “don’t want kids from Penny”, if left unchanged in remaining episodes ,destroys Leonard’s dream of being a Dad and leaves Penny with a permanent nagging sense of disappointing her husband and father despite what they’ve said, while watching Leonard live through seeing Sheldon!!!??! become a dad to constantly remind him of what he was denied. Yes that is being dramatic but it’s coming across that way for some fans, and if it was real life would be the obvious reality.

A meaningless drunken kiss that led to nothing doesn’t come close to this story if left as it stands. For me, even the bowling alley breakup was worse than 8.24.


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24 minutes ago, Itwasdestined said:


Disagree. Concocted boat kiss didn’t even stop Penny from still marrying Leonard as planned. Trauma was over in a few episodes and they moved on to a happy marriage, never to speak of it again

Concocted “don’t want kids from Penny”, if left unchanged in remaining episodes ,destroys Leonard’s dream of being a Dad and leaves Penny with a permanent nagging sense of disappointing her husband and father despite what they’ve said, while watching Leonard live through seeing Sheldon!!!??! become a dad to constantly remind him of what he was denied. Yes that is being dramatic but it’s coming across that way for some fans, and if it was real life would be the obvious reality.

A meaningless drunken kiss that led to nothing doesn’t come close to this story if left as it stands. For me, even the bowling alley breakup was worse than 8.24.


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Rewatching 12x03, was it even bad? IT just felt like a filler. Penny drops a bombshell, they barley discuss it. And Leonard compromises. The Last episode felt like more depth. They delved further into the reasons why Penny does not want kids. Not by much, but alot more then 12x03. 

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Rewatching 12x03, was it even bad? IT just felt like a filler. Penny drops a bombshell, they barley discuss it. And Leonard compromises. The Last episode felt like more depth. They delved further into the reasons why Penny does not want kids. Not by much, but alot more then 12x03. 


I don’t look at it as just 1203. That was just the start. And that’s the thing. It was just the start. And it’s still going. 8.24 was ended very early on in Season 9 and had no long term effects. 1203 was the beginning of a life decision that is still unresolved and has continuing repercussions if left unchanged. The fact is was so casually introduced, ignored for a few episodes, escalated further by the sperm donor plot, ignored again then brought to a head with the last episode showing Leonard’s raw emotion and Penny being forced to admit she feels bad about it to her father ( but not to Leonard yet) makes it much worse than just the isolated event of 1203. Sure the actual 824 episode may have had a greater immediate impact because the BS kiss was given a greater focus in an individual Lenny scene but the overall impact of that episode pales into insignificance compared to the current situation. But...... your entitled to your opinion.


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2 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

Rewatching 12x03, was it even bad? IT just felt like a filler. Penny drops a bombshell, they barley discuss it. And Leonard compromises. The Last episode felt like more depth. They delved further into the reasons why Penny does not want kids. Not by much, but alot more then 12x03. 

Look at it this way skull, in 8.24, they took a whole year to fix the problems that kissed caused, but it was fixed.  There is no year available to fix 12.03, and to some unknown number, but more than a few, of Lenny fans, the "donation" arc, has simply made it worse.  They still haven't talked about it, so when is that going to happen?  We got seven episodes left to tape. 

And, as it+11 pointed out, now we have Penny knowing Leonard was not all right with not having kids.  And now, Penny's upset because she is disappointing the two most important men in her life.   And, to top it off, at some point, Penny is going to have to watch Leonard see his closest friends raising their kids, kids he wanted and won't get, at this point.   All of that doesn't make me, or quite a few other fans, happy about the show.  

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Look at it this way skull, in 8.24, they took a whole year to fix the problems that kissed caused, but it was fixed.  There is no year available to fix 12.03, and to some unknown number, but more than a few, of Lenny fans, the "donation" arc, has simply made it worse.  They still haven't talked about it, so when is that going to happen?  We got seven episodes left to tape. 
And, as it+11 pointed out, now we have Penny knowing Leonard was not all right with not having kids.  And now, Penny's upset because she is disappointing the two most important men in her life.   And, to top it off, at some point, Penny is going to have to watch Leonard see his closest friends raising their kids, kids he wanted and won't get, at this point.   All of that doesn't make me, or quite a few other fans, happy about the show.  

It+11?? LOL.


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1 minute ago, Itwasdestined said:


It+11?? LOL.


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I had a boss at one point who's last name had 12 letters in it, his boss, and eventually all of us, when not needing to be formal, started calling him B+11.  I guess I could have gone with I + 12.   😛

 

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4 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

Bit of an over estimation. NO where near as bad as 8x24. 

G’day.

Sorry to drop in randomly but I have to say I concur with bfm and iwd.  Decisions on progeny are most consequential life choices. To my mind, anyway. So,  how do they wrap this in a today and satisfying manner?

IDK. 

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On the discussed topic I would like to insert this current article here. However, I will forbear a comment on it myself.

digitalspy.com

Speaking to Metro, executive producer Eric Kaplan said: "We’re trying to approach it with a lot of care because there are a lot of people for whom this show is emotionally important.

"There are people who see themselves in the characters and see their family members in them, and it helps them make sense of themselves and make sense of their loved ones and have an optimistic attitude about the challenges of their lives. We want to honour that.

"If people have emotionally invested in us, we want to treat that with the care and respect that it deserves. And it’s supposed to be funny, that adds a whole extra thing. It’s a challenge, but it’s a good challenge. I think we can do it, but we still might screw up."

Eric also echoed star Kaley Cuoco's comments about not wanting Penny to have a baby, stating: "To me personally I feel strongly that women don’t have to have children to have fulfilling lives."

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On the discussed topic I would like to insert this current article here. However, I will forbear a comment on it myself. digitalspy.com

Speaking to Metro, executive producer Eric Kaplan said: "We’re trying to approach it with a lot of care because there are a lot of people for whom this show is emotionally important.

"There are people who see themselves in the characters and see their family members in them, and it helps them make sense of themselves and make sense of their loved ones and have an optimistic attitude about the challenges of their lives. We want to honour that.

"If people have emotionally invested in us, we want to treat that with the care and respect that it deserves. And it’s supposed to be funny, that adds a whole extra thing. It’s a challenge, but it’s a good challenge. I think we can do it, but we still might screw up."

Eric also echoed star Kaley Cuoco's comments about not wanting Penny to have a baby, stating: "To me personally I feel strongly that women don’t have to have children to have fulfilling lives."

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Kaplan and Kaley about women having fulfilling lives without children.

 

My complaint is with the writing of the story and the lateness of the plot coming in the final season, not with Penny’s decision.

 

Lenny had a whole year of engagement and 2.5 years of serious dating to bring this topic up before marriage, just like Howard and Bernie did. It could have been properly discussed when the random moments baby discussion emerged rather than spending a season behind the kitchen island watching their friends. Leonard could have accepted it after serious thought just like Howard did. Every Lenny story and episode since could have been written exactly the same from the point of resolution, Season 8 would still have been billed as Season Hate by Lennies but for more important reasons and we wouldn’t be spending the final season wailing about how our dreams of Lenny babies have been cruelly ripped from our needy shipping lives.

 

Instead, the writers throw it in as the finale of the Lenny story and everything else said by Kaplan in the above article comes across as vacuous,insincere BS.

 

(It’s clear they read this forum though. What he said is literally what I have done for the last 6 years.)

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Itwasdestined said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Kaplan and Kaley about women having fulfilling lives without children.

 

My complaint is with the writing of the story and the lateness of the plot coming in the final season, not with Penny’s decision.

 

Lenny had a whole year of engagement and 2.5 years of serious dating to bring this topic up before marriage, just like Howard and Bernie did. It could have been properly discussed when the random moments baby discussion emerged rather than spending a season behind the kitchen island watching their friends. Leonard could have accepted it after serious thought just like Howard did. Every Lenny story and episode since could have been written exactly the same from the point of resolution, Season 8 would still have been billed as Season Hate by Lennies but for more important reasons and we wouldn’t be spending the final season wailing about how our dreams of Lenny babies have been cruelly ripped from our needy shipping lives.

 

Instead, the writers throw it in as the finale of the Lenny story and everything else said by Kaplan in the above article comes across as vacuous,insincere BS.

 

(It’s clear they read this forum though. What he said is literally what I have done for the last 6 years.)

I definitely agree with this! And that makes a comment so difficult when, on the other hand, I read such implausible statements as in this article above.

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10 hours ago, veejay said:

On the discussed topic I would like to insert this current article here. However, I will forbear a comment on it myself.

digitalspy.com

Speaking to Metro, executive producer Eric Kaplan said: "We’re trying to approach it with a lot of care because there are a lot of people for whom this show is emotionally important.

"There are people who see themselves in the characters and see their family members in them, and it helps them make sense of themselves and make sense of their loved ones and have an optimistic attitude about the challenges of their lives. We want to honour that.

"If people have emotionally invested in us, we want to treat that with the care and respect that it deserves. And it’s supposed to be funny, that adds a whole extra thing. It’s a challenge, but it’s a good challenge. I think we can do it, but we still might screw up."

Eric also echoed star Kaley Cuoco's comments about not wanting Penny to have a baby, stating: "To me personally I feel strongly that women don’t have to have children to have fulfilling lives."

 

9 hours ago, Itwasdestined said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Kaplan and Kaley about women having fulfilling lives without children.

 

My complaint is with the writing of the story and the lateness of the plot coming in the final season, not with Penny’s decision.

 

Lenny had a whole year of engagement and 2.5 years of serious dating to bring this topic up before marriage, just like Howard and Bernie did. It could have been properly discussed when the random moments baby discussion emerged rather than spending a season behind the kitchen island watching their friends. Leonard could have accepted it after serious thought just like Howard did. Every Lenny story and episode since could have been written exactly the same from the point of resolution, Season 8 would still have been billed as Season Hate by Lennies but for more important reasons and we wouldn’t be spending the final season wailing about how our dreams of Lenny babies have been cruelly ripped from our needy shipping lives.

 

Instead, the writers throw it in as the finale of the Lenny story and everything else said by Kaplan in the above article comes across as vacuous,insincere BS.

 

(It’s clear they read this forum though. What he said is literally what I have done for the last 6 years.)

 

 

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I totally agree with you, itwas (except for them reading forums, I don't think they do, he may be referring to facebook and twitter comments). 

I totally support the idea that women can have satisfying lives without children, but they shouldn't have dropped this on Penny, and Leonard, just like that, so late into the run, so out of the blue, incompatible IMO with what we've seen before and with the character. They sacrificed the characters and the story, and upset many fans (and it can't be that they didn't realize it would upset fans). Whenever I read these words about treating the characters with care and wanting to give them a satisfying ending I have to laugh. I think this is only true to Sheldon and to a lesser extent Amy. And Kaplan talks about people using the characters to make sense of themselves and others in an optimistic way... I think this doesn't apply here because this wasn't Penny. This is not the character people connected with, this is something that was suddenly dropped on that character. It would've been something completely different if they had her have doubts about children from say season 7. But no. They didn't. This was a Hokus Pocus, it was a sudden unexplained change in the character. So yeah, I feel like this "care" talk is total BS.

Anyway, Kaplan is supportive of no kids here, like Holland was in an interview a few months ago. This is why I am not expecting the no kids decision to change. 

(Also, Kaley had changed her tone about Lenny kids, and the reason seemed to be the effect this is having on fans.)

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48 minutes ago, bfm said:

 

I totally agree with you, itwas (except from them reading forums, I don't think they do, he may be referring tl facebook and twitter comments). 

I totally support the idea that women can have satisfying lives without children, but they shouldn't have dropped this on Penny, and Leonard, just like that, so late into the run, so out of the blue, incompatible IMO with what we've seen before and with the character. (A) They sacrificed the characters and the story, and upset many fans (and it can't be that they didn't realize it would upset fans). Whenever I read these words about treating the characters with care and wanting to give them a satiafying ending I have to laugh. I think this is only true to Sheldon and to a lesser extent Amy. And Kaplan talks about people usong the charactera to make sense of themselves and others in an optimistic way... I think this doesn't apply here because this wasn't Penny. This is not the character people connected with, this is something that was suddenly dropped on that character. It would've been something completely different if they had her have doubts about children from say season 7. But no. They didn't. (B) This was a Hokus Pocus, it was a sudden unexplained change in the character. So yeah, I feel like this "care" talk is total BS.

Anyway, Kaplan is supportive of no kids here, like Holland was in an interview a few months ago. This is why I am not expecting the no kids decision to change. 

(Also, Kaley had changed her tone about Lenny kids, and the reason seemed to be the effect this is having on fans.)

(A) We’re both on the same page and I don't have anything to add.

(B) Their mouth continue to do words, blabla...

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5 hours ago, veejay said:

" I feel strongly that women don’t have to have children to have fulfilling lives."

Irrelevant, Kaplan ! It's not a matter of anybody's feelings, strong, weak, or otherwise. Everybody on the planet is here because a woman, fulfilled - or not - by our existence, gave birth to us. And a man was overjoyed - or not -  because he'd sired us. True,millions of people who are not parents feel fulfilled in their lives and millions who are parents also feel fulfilled. And plenty of  people go through life feeling unfulfilled at times for all sorts of reasons, often to do with their own parents. Much in life is fulfilling, and is so whether we are parents or not.  Many spend years of their lives hoping for children, distracted from what else could fulfill them.  What's any of that got to do with the price of chips ? 

It's Penny, an individual, who's the subject of concern here, not 'women'. And Leonard. Penny who wanted the stupid pop tart or bran muffin. Penny who took her time to decide she wanted the right man, the man who wanted her. Penny who had a life going on with decisions to make unconnected to her relationship, just like everybody else. It's Leonard who'll never be a dad or a pop-pop to his Elliot. Leonard who's being told yet again that he can't have. Leonard the uncle, Leonard the godfather, Leonard whose brother provides cousins for his other nephews, Leonard who thought he'd be a father. 

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11 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

Irrelevant, Kaplan ! It's not a matter of anybody's feelings, strong, weak, or otherwise. Everybody on the planet is here because a woman, fulfilled - or not - by our existence, gave birth to us. And a man was overjoyed - or not -  because he'd sired us. True,millions of people who are not parents feel fulfilled in their lives and millions who are parents also feel fulfilled. And plenty of  people go through life feeling unfulfilled at times for all sorts of reasons, often to do with their own parents. Much in life is fulfilling, and is so whether we are parents or not.  Many spend years of their lives hoping for children, distracted from what else could fulfill them.  What's any of that got to do with the price of chips ? 

It's Penny, an individual, who's the subject of concern here, not 'women'. And Leonard. Penny who wanted the stupid pop tart or bran muffin. Penny who took her time to decide she wanted the right man, the man who wanted her. Penny who had a life going on with decisions to make unconnected to her relationship, just like everybody else. It's Leonard who'll never be a dad or a pop-pop to his Elliot. Leonard who's being told yet again that he can't have. Leonard the uncle, Leonard the godfather, Leonard whose brother provides cousins for his other nephews, Leonard who thought he'd be a father. 

I can find no argument whatsoever with your post!

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15 hours ago, bfm said:

The question that I cannot answer for the life of me is WHY.

I expect to get rotten tomatoes tossed at me, even in a dark Lenny thread, but I do think I have an answer for this. The showrunners and writers probably never thought of the show as being about Penny and Leonard. They seem to have written it is as a couple of quirky guys and their friends who were to react and be reacted to by a neighbor and something to joke about. When some of the fan base saw it differently, more seriously,  I suspect they were puzzled at first, then somewhat annoyed. I do not think they were pleased by some of their fans seeing it as only being about Lenny at all. I just don't. If anyone here does they have more faith in these writers than I do. They let them marry, but once that was done, I think they they thought they had placated that faction of fans and were done with Lenny for the most part. The kids story is the last assertion they can make that they are writing and running this show, not a segment of fans. I know that sounds harsh, but look at the evidence. Just look at it.  They've had a couple of writers who were good at writing Lenny but I don't think that's what they were hired for. I've had this feeling all along with is why I couldn't just devote myself to these two characters and watch for them alone. I like well written Lenny but so much of it has not been. There have been too many lines and scenes along the way that seemed to me to show the writers belittling Lenny. How else can some of these things like no kids, the boat kiss, some of the lines designed to make her look dumb, guys at the Pop Con  sitting at Lenard's feet while he tells them how he wore Penny down, be explained?

This is one of the reasons I do not see a Lenny spinoff coming. That and the fact that I really think Johnny agrees deep down with Jim that it's time to move on and do their own things.

Edited by Die Zimtzicke
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12 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I expect to get rotten tomatoes tossed at me, even in a dark Lenny thread, but I do think I have an answer for this. The showrunners and writers probably never thought of the show as being about Penny and Leonard. They seem to have written it is as a couple of quirky guys and their friends who were to react and be reacted to by a neighbor and something to joke about. When some of the fan base saw it differently, more seriously,  I suspect they were puzzled at first, then somewhat annoyed. I do not think they were pleased by some of their fans seeing it as only being about Lenny at all. I just don't. If anyone here does they have more faith in these writers than I do. They let them marry, but once that was done, I think they they thought they had placated that faction of fans and were done with Lenny for the most part. The kids story is the last assertion they can make that they are writing and running this show, not a segment of fans. I know that sounds harsh, but look at the evidence. Just look at it.  They've had a couple of writers who were good at writing Lenny but I don't think that's what they were hired for. I've had this feeling all along with is why I couldn't just devote myself to these two characters and watch for them alone. They have been too many lines and scenes along the way that seemed to me to show the writers belittling Lenny. How else can some of these things like no kids, the boat kiss, some of the lines designed to make her look dumb, guys at the Pop Con  sitting at Lenard's feet while he tells them how he wore Penny down, be explained?

This is one of the reasons I do not see a Lenny spinoff coming. That and the fact that I really think Johnny agrees deep down with Jim that it's time to move on and do their own things.

Well, that's actually the first plausible explanation I've seen. I sometimes wonder if it's not just the Lenny fans the showrunners and writers resent. Maybe KC's depth of acting, charisma and sheer projected sex appeal just made Lenny the outstanding long story arc really against the showrunners and writers' will, and that's why they like to denigrate Penny and promote the no-charisma, no-sex appeal (and no inner life) Amy over her.

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27 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I expect to get rotten tomatoes tossed at me, even in a dark Lenny thread, but I do think I have an answer for this. The showrunners and writers probably never thought of the show as being about Penny and Leonard. They seem to have written it is as a couple of quirky guys and their friends who were to react and be reacted to by a neighbor and something to joke about. When some of the fan base saw it differently, more seriously,  I suspect they were puzzled at first, then somewhat annoyed. I do not think they were pleased by some of their fans seeing it as only being about Lenny at all. I just don't. If anyone here does they have more faith in these writers than I do. They let them marry, but once that was done, I think they they thought they had placated that faction of fans and were done with Lenny for the most part. The kids story is the last assertion they can make that they are writing and running this show, not a segment of fans. I know that sounds harsh, but look at the evidence. Just look at it.  They've had a couple of writers who were good at writing Lenny but I don't think that's what they were hired for. I've had this feeling all along with is why I couldn't just devote myself to these two characters and watch for them alone. I like well written Lenny but so much of it has not been. There have been too many lines and scenes along the way that seemed to me to show the writers belittling Lenny. How else can some of these things like no kids, the boat kiss, some of the lines designed to make her look dumb, guys at the Pop Con  sitting at Lenard's feet while he tells them how he wore Penny down, be explained?

This is one of the reasons I do not see a Lenny spinoff coming. That and the fact that I really think Johnny agrees deep down with Jim that it's time to move on and do their own things.

I don't think the show is about Lenny, they are one of my favorite thing about it, but the show is more than Lenny. The thing is, it still doesn't make sense if you think of what the show is supposed to "achieve". It is supposed to be a feel-good sitcom. Yes, they threw in some breakups, some sad stuff, but when it ends in character growth or touching moments it achieves something that I think is good for such a show. However, all the no kids does is make us watch a character get its heart broken and conclude the show implying two character will forever have to deal with a big burden. Nothing funny about this and no character growth. Perhaps a touching moment when Leonard decided not to donate and stand up against Wyatt, but that was brief and complicated and I can't see how it was worth it. I don't see how this contributes to the show in any way. I don't see the need to end this kind of show in this way. 

Now, if you're suggesting they're trying to intentionally piss off Lenny fans, then I feel sorry for them. That makes them incredibly immature. I'm trying to nevertheless have some respect for them so I don't think this is it. But who knows. 

ETA: And I agree with you about a Lenny spin-off, I don't think there will be one. In fact there seems to be no interest in any spin-off (other than YS) for the time being.

Edited by bfm
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17 hours ago, bfm said:

I generally don't post anymore since I've decided to stop watching this show, at least for the time being, but I wanted to respond to (more follow up) this post because it mentioned the thing that bothers me most about this whole no Lenny kids thing. I am quoting this in Dark Lenny to spare those who don't want to read such a negative post. Yup. Very negative here. You've been warned, please do not read if you don't like these kind of posts. I don't want to upset anyone.

Many things bother me about this plot/story/arc/whatever, but the "honor" for most bothering goes to what Jonny mentioned here: Leonard and Penny are NOT on the same page. To me, "The Donation Oscillation" showed it very clearly - the only thimg Penny mentioned as a reason to regret her decision was not wanting to disappoint her husband and her father, which means she doesn't want kids; Leonard was willing to donate sperm for the chance to pass his genes, and then felt a lot of pain at the thought of not raising the cold, which means he wants to raise kids, to be a father. They can make him change his mind, but I think with all that we've seen and with so little left, to me it would be laughable (and not in the way this show is supposed to be). Hokus Pocus Leonard doesn't want kids! Just like they did with Penny, Hokus Pocus she doesn't want kids! 

As it is, their fate seems somewhat tragic. Leonard has to give up on something he really wants in life in order to be with Penny. He will have her, which is wonderful for him, but he will have to watch his friends grow their children, go through things he wanted to go through but never will. This is a very big sacrifice. It may be romantic, but do we really need to see Leonard sacrificing in romance's sake again? We had seen this all along (also, this makes Penny seem like a trophy again, don't need this). Penny will have to live with guilt. I'm not on any way saying she should have kids out of guilt! Absolutely not! But she will live with guilt. 

The question that I cannot answer for the life of me is WHY. Why did the writers do that? I cannot think of a reason that would make me think this is worth it. It would be totally different if this were a sappy drama, but it isn't. It is supposed to be a feel-good sitcom. So why have characters get their hearts broken, and have to live the rest of their lives with such burden? Just because they had 2 pregnancy plots? Just because this is different? Juat to keep fans on edge? Just because some group if women who don't want kids suggested it in a letter? They probably did not consider Penny's previous stance and how it fits the character, just noticed she didn't have kids and saw it as an opportunity. IMO, the writers who are supposed to think of their characters, the story they've told and what their show is supposed to be and go by that instead of by external factors that IMO do not justify this by any means. Even if they have Penny change her mind I don't see why it would be worth it, and there will be other problems with that (i.e, the message that women who don't want kids change their minds eventually, like two characters in this show).

I also think they missed a chance to give Penny emotional growth, which would fit it being the last season. Thankfully they are giving her career development, but emotionally? She hasn't grown in a while. In fact, "The Donation Oscillation" had her regress. Instead they could have shown the former(?) commitment phobe make the ultimate commitment to someone and have and raise kids with him, something so intimate and important that will connect them for life, even if they got divorce (not saying that they will, just hypothetically; in this scenario Penny never changed her mind into not wanting kids).

I think 12×03 was the worst decision the writers have made in the entire show (well, at least for now, they still have time to top it). IMO, it is such a shame to have the show go like this.

I never thought I would decide to stop watching, but right now I feel that I've made the right decision. I used to like this show so much, but this season is just too much for me. At least they made saying goodbye much easier.

BFM, that was the most cogent, lucid and insightful analysis I have read on this topic.  TPTB are in a no-win situation that they created for themselves. It is a damn-if-I-do or damn-if-I-don't  scenario that does not look like a sit-com happy ending.  Whatever they come up with it will wind up offending someone.  I hope they can live with all the criticism they will get from some dissatisfied viewers/critics.  And it is a shame to have the legacy of this great show end with such a bitter taste..........but I will reserve my final comments after the last episode is done.

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2 hours ago, bfm said:

Now, if you're suggesting they're trying to intentionally piss off Lenny fans, then I feel sorry for them. That makes them incredibly immature. I'm trying to nevertheless have some respect for them so I don't think this is it. But who knows. 

Maybe not intentionally trying to piss them off,  but I've never felt Lenny fans were a main concern of those people.

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2 hours ago, bfm said:

I really think Johnny agrees deep down with Jim that it's time to move on and do their own things.

Be that as it may, Kaley can be persuasive in getting her best friend and TV husband to do things. As he has that power with her! 

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12 minutes ago, chucky said:

Be that as it may, Kaley can be persuasive in getting her best friend and TV husband to do things. As he has that power with her! 

Just pointing out the quote system made a mistake, I did not write the quoted post.

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46 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I've never felt Lenny fans were a main concern of those people.

Not since season 6!

3 minutes ago, bfm said:

Just pointing out the quote system made a mistake, I did not write the quoted post.

Yeah, I know. Had that happen to me a time or two as well!

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10 hours ago, Itwasdestined said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Kaplan and Kaley about women having fulfilling lives without children.

 

My complaint is with the writing of the story and the lateness of the plot coming in the final season, not with Penny’s decision.

 

Lenny had a whole year of engagement and 2.5 years of serious dating to bring this topic up before marriage, just like Howard and Bernie did. It could have been properly discussed when the random moments baby discussion emerged rather than spending a season behind the kitchen island watching their friends. Leonard could have accepted it after serious thought just like Howard did. Every Lenny story and episode since could have been written exactly the same from the point of resolution, Season 8 would still have been billed as Season Hate by Lennies but for more important reasons and we wouldn’t be spending the final season wailing about how our dreams of Lenny babies have been cruelly ripped from our needy shipping lives.

 

Instead, the writers throw it in as the finale of the Lenny story and everything else said by Kaplan in the above article comes across as vacuous,insincere BS.

 

(It’s clear they read this forum though. What he said is literally what I have done for the last 6 years.)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

True, True, True  Kaplan is only one of the writers and I would think that  Lorre, Prady & Holland would have the final say.  And to bring what Kaley said up to date she actually said in the interview with Eonline that "she hopes tptb change their minds about Penny getting pregnant, because women do, they say they are not there yet and then they are and the fans really want that for Lenny"  So who knows what will transpire.

 

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