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[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread


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8 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

I wonder what the writers have in store for Lenny in the final episode if we don't get any Lenny babies.

Divorce.    That's what the whole no babies arc is about.   Penny doesn't want kids, didn't tell Leonard before they were married and dropped it on him after many hints that she wanted kids.  So now, we know Leonard still wants kids, Penny doesn't, but now she feels guilty about it.  So, Leonard pushes, Penny gets defensive because...how else to they have Penny react?  Lenny fight, they finally figure Leonard won't be happy without kids and Penny doesn't want to feel guilty about living with someone who wants kids and her just dropping the bomb on him without talking it through.  The only way to solve it is them getting divorced.  Thereby completing the destruction of the couple that they started in season four with branding Penny as a slut and alcoholic.  And later branding Leonard as not worthy of having Penny as his wife.   And, to be honest, I'm not sure how much of this is sarcasm, anger, or they way I actually feel about the writers.  

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I can actually live with the one off cheating bullshit more than the long running stupidity of the “he wore her down” line which yet again rears its ugly head in the next episode. As unrealistic and

It was about a year ago at this time and I just finished watching 11.24. The Shamy wedding. It was wonderful and marvelous. A really amazing television wedding. It was then that I told myself yes. The

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4 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I expect to get rotten tomatoes tossed at me, even in a dark Lenny thread, but I do think I have an answer for this. The showrunners and writers probably never thought of the show as being about Penny and Leonard. They seem to have written it is as a couple of quirky guys and their friends who were to react and be reacted to by a neighbor and something to joke about. When some of the fan base saw it differently, more seriously,  I suspect they were puzzled at first, then somewhat annoyed. I do not think they were pleased by some of their fans seeing it as only being about Lenny at all. I just don't. If anyone here does they have more faith in these writers than I do. They let them marry, but once that was done, I think they they thought they had placated that faction of fans and were done with Lenny for the most part. The kids story is the last assertion they can make that they are writing and running this show, not a segment of fans. I know that sounds harsh, but look at the evidence. Just look at it.  They've had a couple of writers who were good at writing Lenny but I don't think that's what they were hired for. I've had this feeling all along with is why I couldn't just devote myself to these two characters and watch for them alone. I like well written Lenny but so much of it has not been. There have been too many lines and scenes along the way that seemed to me to show the writers belittling Lenny. How else can some of these things like no kids, the boat kiss, some of the lines designed to make her look dumb, guys at the Pop Con  sitting at Lenard's feet while he tells them how he wore Penny down, be explained?

This is one of the reasons I do not see a Lenny spinoff coming. That and the fact that I really think Johnny agrees deep down with Jim that it's time to move on and do their own things.

I have to disagree somewhat. The first three seasons centered around Penny and Leonard's blooming romance and Sheldon's  quirky tendencies to establish his character. Penny and Leonard were the core couple from the beginning and yes when they married the writers went on to the other characters as central to the storylines. As far as a Lenny spin-off goes I think since they have not used their characters centrally for the past 3-4 seasons there may be some storylines yet to tell for them. Whether Johnny wants to keep his character alive is another story to be revealed.

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3 minutes ago, Tensor said:

Divorce.    That's what the whole no babies arc is about.   Penny doesn't want kids, didn't tell Leonard before they were married and dropped it on him after many hints that she wanted kids.  So now, we know Leonard still wants kids, Penny doesn't, but now she feels guilty about it.  So, Leonard pushes, Penny gets defensive because...how else to they have Penny react?  Lenny fight, they finally figure Leonard won't be happy without kids and Penny doesn't want to feel guilty about living with someone who wants kids and her just dropping the bomb on him without talking it through.  The only way to solve it is them getting divorced.  Thereby completing the destruction of the couple that they started in season four with branding Penny as a slut and alcoholic.  And later branding Leonard as not worthy of having Penny as his wife.   And, to be honest, I'm not sure how much of this is sarcasm, anger, or they way I actually feel about the writers.  

I think you sadly could be right with this analysis.

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8 minutes ago, Tensor said:

Divorce.    That's what the whole no babies arc is about.   Penny doesn't want kids, didn't tell Leonard before they were married and dropped it on him after many hints that she wanted kids.  So now, we know Leonard still wants kids, Penny doesn't, but now she feels guilty about it.  So, Leonard pushes, Penny gets defensive because...how else to they have Penny react?  Lenny fight, they finally figure Leonard won't be happy without kids and Penny doesn't want to feel guilty about living with someone who wants kids and her just dropping the bomb on him without talking it through.  The only way to solve it is them getting divorced.  Thereby completing the destruction of the couple that they started in season four with branding Penny as a slut and alcoholic.  And later branding Leonard as not worthy of having Penny as his wife.   And, to be honest, I'm not sure how much of this is sarcasm, anger, or they way I actually feel about the writers.  

I cannot see them ending in this way as it would nullify the whole 12 years of this show and leave a legacy of bitterness that will provoke a wave of harsh criticism. But on the other hand it is a very plausible conclusion.

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10 minutes ago, Tensor said:

Divorce.    That's what the whole no babies arc is about.   Penny doesn't want kids, didn't tell Leonard before they were married and dropped it on him after many hints that she wanted kids.  So now, we know Leonard still wants kids, Penny doesn't, but now she feels guilty about it.  So, Leonard pushes, Penny gets defensive because...how else to they have Penny react?  Lenny fight, they finally figure Leonard won't be happy without kids and Penny doesn't want to feel guilty about living with someone who wants kids and her just dropping the bomb on him without talking it through.  The only way to solve it is them getting divorced.  Thereby completing the destruction of the couple that they started in season four with branding Penny as a slut and alcoholic.  And later branding Leonard as not worthy of having Penny as his wife.   And, to be honest, I'm not sure how much of this is sarcasm, anger, or they way I actually feel about the writers.  

This is grounds for divorce, no doubt about it. If they'd had a standard church wedding with the vicar reading out the purpose of marriage and the couple asserting that they understood, a subsequent willful refusal to procreate would be a breaking of the contract. I've been told on this board that regardless of what they say at the 'altar' a US marriage means the same, whether real vows are made or not, once the officiant declares them husband and wife. So, under more or less anybody's law, Leonard's entitled to end it and go elsewhere.

However, at the age Leonard would be once he was free, could he find a fertile enough woman from scratch in his own age group who hadn't been married with children already ? 

Given he'd need three years to get over Penny and start courting again, fall in love with somebody enough to want to build a life with her, set up a new home, get married, begin the family, the chances are he'd have to fish in a much younger pool or become a stepfather. And that's if there even exists a woman who'd want to be part of the social group Leonard's been in all these years. It would be a great gamble. He might as well stay with Penny.

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Nah, divorce won’t happen. The writers have a VERY different interpretation of how Lenny are going compared to us. They don’t see any issues with how they’re portrayed. They think they generally are happy and think it’s part of their job to throw some curve balls at them but behind it all they think Lenny are fine. Even if I think some of what Kaplan said is BS, the core of his comments is they want to be kind to the characters end story, even though they might screw up. Sure, in our minds , they’ve screwed up big time with Lenny over the years but they always eventually bring them back to the loving couple we love. (Despite the evidence against, they, especially Lorre, think they love all the characters, not just Shamy). With no more seasons to fix the screw up, I just don’t think they’ll go that far and end it all with divorce. That is TOO DARK!


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I really agree with you that a divorce won’t happen,  it could simply be the fan fic writer in me, and the dark place they are at in my current story.  But, I think it says a lot about how they’ve been portrayed over the last several years, that my mind went there. 

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37 minutes ago, Tensor said:

I really agree with you that a divorce won’t happen,  it could simply be the fan fic writer in me, and the dark place they are at in my current story.  But, I think it says a lot about how they’ve been portrayed over the last several years, that my mind went there. 

Have you heard anything about the cast attending Paley-fest this year?  I wonder if any of these questions will come up if they do attend. Probably not as they would not want to give away any plots, especially in this final season.  So, some more BS lip service!

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23 minutes ago, Mario D. said:

Have you heard anything about the cast attending Paley-fest this year?  I wonder if any of these questions will come up if they do attend. Probably not as they would not want to give away any plots, especially in this final season.  So, some more BS lip service!

Paley Fest LA runs March 15-24 and the full line up is set.  TBBT is not included.

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3 hours ago, bfm said:

Just pointing out the quote system made a mistake, I did not write the quoted post.

Oh, I hate it when that happens.

2 hours ago, Tensor said:

Divorce.    That's what the whole no babies arc is about.  

I don't see that in the storyline, but if they go into the future I could actually see them doing that.

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I don't see that in the storyline, but if they go into the future I could actually see them doing that.

Going into the future then becomes part of the storyline so it still becomes a divorce story I just don’t seem them considering.


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Re future L/P:

Manure sandwich with candy sprinkles.

“Never mind Leonard’s personal tragedy, look how funny his predicament is. Hoist by his own optimism and hope for a better life than he had had before.

He should have been more sensible at the outset . Own goal really. See kids, choose wisely.”

Leonard gutted, again. But stoically chewing his way through it. Unless he gets a backbone. And Penny-less future. 

Cheers

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58 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Re future L/P:

Manure sandwich with candy sprinkles.

“Never mind Leonard’s personal tragedy, look how funny his predicament is. Hoist by his own optimism and hope for a better life than he had had before.

He should have been more sensible at the outset . Own goal really. See kids, choose wisely.”

Leonard gutted, again. But stoically chewing his way through it. Unless he gets a backbone. And Penny-less future. 

Cheers

"WTF"

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If it was real life it absolutely could happen, but this isn’t real life so I think chances of a divorce are nonexistent.

Penny is going to change her mind and I think the writers will do it in such a cack-handed way that it makes you question why the change of mind as it won’t be properly explored or explained.

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55 minutes ago, Jonny said:

If it was real life it absolutely could happen, but this isn’t real life so I think chances of a divorce are nonexistent.

Penny is going to change her mind and I think the writers will do it in such a cack-handed way that it makes you question why the change of mind as it won’t be properly explored or explained.

Agreed! I can't wait to see how they handle this mess they made!

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1 hour ago, Jonny said:

If it was real life it absolutely could happen, but this isn’t real life so I think chances of a divorce are nonexistent.

Penny is going to change her mind and I think the writers will do it in such a cack-handed way that it makes you question why the change of mind as it won’t be properly explored or explained.

Well, we had that in 12.3, and several other things with Lenny, so it would really be no surprise, if that is how they did it. 

 

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2 hours ago, Jonny said:

If it was real life it absolutely could happen, but this isn’t real life so I think chances of a divorce are nonexistent.

Penny is going to change her mind and I think the writers will do it in such a cack-handed way that it makes you question why the change of mind as it won’t be properly explored or explained.

I agree about no divorce, but in interviews the writers endorsed the no kids idea, not only some months ago but alsovery recently, so I don't see why people are so sure they will have her change her mind. 

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9 minutes ago, veejay said:

So, I had a dream…oh, wait.

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TBH looking back they got engaged way too early. I always imagined this to be the series final. I think they lost a bit of the payoff. When they married them off. In a way it was refreshing, as say compared to Friends. TBBT broke down the trope of "Well they or won't they". But it was counterintuitive. And it felt like ever since Season 8 they were just ready to ride off into the sunset. Breaking Bad is my fav tv show of all time. But even when they revealed Heisenberg to Hank. The Series Final was still amazing. I don't know if it is just me. But when Lenny had that crappy first wedding end of Season 8. That was the begginning of the show going off a cliff. Instead of getting to the other side. And now this baby storyline is just if not more crappy then their wedding. And they by accident more then anyone managed to resolve it vaguely. But its left an unopen feel to it. Leading to only 2 options. 1. Penny inexplicably changes her mind. Or 2. The whole idea is a gray area. Either way if you've invested in Lenny since Day One you have to feel hard done  by. 

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TBH looking back they got engaged way too early. I always imagined this to be the series final. I think they lost a bit of the payoff. When they married them off. In a way it was refreshing, as say compared to Friends. TBBT broke down the trope of "Well they or won't they". But it was counterintuitive. And it felt like ever since Season 8 they were just ready to ride off into the sunset. Breaking Bad is my fav tv show of all time. But even when they revealed Heisenberg to Hank. The Series Final was still amazing. I don't know if it is just me. But when Lenny had that crappy first wedding end of Season 8. That was the begginning of the show going off a cliff. Instead of getting to the other side. 


I get what you’re saying at it’s probably true but it’s more the show kept on going more than they got engaged too early. They were together for 2 and a half years so not exactly a whirlwind relationship. Maybe the wedding was rushed when they weren’t really prepared. Maybe Season 9 should have been a second year of engagement when they worked out their differences but by then the writers were rushing headlong into Shamy overload. Even during the 3 years of marriage they could have at least got some baby talk action but then every time Leonard brought it up, Penny brushed it off very quickly. Lenny were front and centre for a long time and then the show just kept going and they were done for a long time as well. It is what it is now. Not much we can do now but enjoy what we can.


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I don't watch any other (maybe comparable) series. So I can't go into them. My perception is limited to this comedy and my interest is/was preferably in a funny series, based on the existing characters and stories. This became more and more difficult for me, especially with regard to Lenny (which I preferred since the beginning). Also the whole direction of this sitcom into a "romantic" main component, makes me helpless for quite some time, but the aspects mentioned here I mostly share.
However, I don't want to give up my view of the stories without trying to lose my humor, despite the many absurdities of TPTBs.
So: It’s a little late for me to start saying no. Yes, it is!

 

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Am I the only Lenny who thinks it will be fine if Penny doesn't change her mind so long as Leonard stops moping and makes the effort to really understand Penny's feelings and they end up on the same page?

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41 minutes ago, JohnPhD said:

Am I the only Lenny who thinks it will be fine if Penny doesn't change her mind so long as Leonard stops moping and makes the effort to really understand Penny's feelings and they end up on the same page?

No, I'm in agreement! As long as they're on the same page and happy. But, part of me would rather have Hofstadter kids instead of Wolowitz kids!

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