[Spoilers] Season 12 Dark Lenny Thread

[SRAM]

Maybe it is just that audiences like that someone can act like a complete asshole for 12 seasons to his friends and everyone else yet still grab the gold ring, the Nobel.  It gives them the feeling that they can do anything they want and don’t have to care about anyone else but themselves, and there will be no consequences in the end.

While if you are a nice guy like Leonard you always get crapped on because nice guys always finish last.

[chucky]

38 minutes ago, SRAM said:

Maybe it is just that audiences like that someone can act like a complete asshole for 12 seasons to his friends and everyone else yet still grab the gold ring, the Nobel.  It gives them the feeling that they can do anything they want and don’t have to care about anyone else but themselves, and there will be no consequences in the end.

While if you are a nice guy like Leonard you always get crapped on because nice guys always finish last.

Agreed!

[Nogravitasatall]

3 hours ago, SRAM said:

Maybe it is just that audiences like that someone can act like a complete asshole for 12 seasons to his friends and everyone else yet still grab the gold ring, the Nobel.  It gives them the feeling that they can do anything they want and don’t have to care about anyone else but themselves, and there will be no consequences in the end.

While if you are a nice guy like Leonard you always get crapped on because nice guys always finish last.

I want to apply this thought to political outcomes. Hehe

4 hours ago, chucky said:

That's one dang good question and we'll probably never get an answer to it.  

We have to wait for the tell-all book.   But I think likely ratings explain the supply side. Not getting the demand side, but SRAM does give an insight on that.

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Nogravitasatall
M

[veejay]

1 hour ago, Nogravitasatall said:

I want to apply this thought to political outcomes. Hehe

That was also my first thought (but a laugh remained stuck in my throat until now).

(I want to avoid any metaphorical attack...)

[chucky]

3 hours ago, veejay said:

That was also my first thought (but a laugh remained stuck in my throat until now).

(I want to avoid any metaphorical attack...)

Cool

[Die Zimtzicke]

10 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Maybe it’s simply a matter of popularity. Perhaps more people were engaged by the broad oddity of Sheldon, rather than the specificity of the particular realisation of the “guy playing out of his league” trope of L/P. And I’d (biasedly) characterise that specificity as being a combination of the particular charm of the actors, the absolute determination of the characters to persevere and the nature of the flipped roles  (Leonard nurtures, Penny kills spiders). That might not have had the legs to go long, compared to mining Sheldon’s possibilities.

More people liked "the broad oddity of Sheldon" than some fans will admit. I've said that all along.

9 hours ago, SRAM said:

Maybe it is just that audiences like that someone can act like a complete asshole for 12 seasons to his friends and everyone else yet still grab the gold ring, the Nobel.  It gives them the feeling that they can do anything they want and don’t have to care about anyone else but themselves, and there will be no consequences in the end.

If the friends in question acted more like they thought he was a complete asshole, it would have made more sense. They're basically, "he's a jerk but we still love him" most of the time.

[SRAM]

46 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

If the friends in question acted more like they thought he was a complete asshole, it would have made more sense. They're basically, "he's a jerk but we still love him" most of the time.

Your right, that is exactly how he and the show is written because like Howard said in a episode, it’s funny when it is not happening to us.  

There is a glaring difference how he is treated on the show than others though, like once Leonard is interviewed about Physics and he says that nothing is happening, we are then  led to believe his job is in danger when in real life scientists make controversial statements all the time and don’t lose their jobs.  But Sheldon can cover the board of directors on goo, act nasty and drive away donors, follow around and bug the president of the university, and act like an ass on radio and TV, but his job is never in danger.  I’m not interested in Sheldon getting a Nobel, I want to know who was protecting him at the university, all these years, from getting fired, thats the question I want answered.

 

[Nogravitasatall]

1 hour ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

More people liked "the broad oddity of Sheldon" than some fans will admit. I've said that all along.

If the friends in question acted more like they thought he was a complete asshole, it would have made more sense. They're basically, "he's a jerk but we still love him" most of the time.

In this case I’d rephrase and say “More people liked "the broad oddity of Sheldon" than some fans can comprehend”.  (waves arms, vocalises “does not compute, does not compute”). Boils down to preference in the end, nothing more. Nothing absolute.

In absolute terms Sheldon is a burden. Luckily for him, others are not as utilitarian as he is, and are prepared to carry the load. He is fortunate to enjoy their compassion. Not that they have a choice.   

[chucky]

52 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

In this case I’d rephrase and say “More people liked "the broad oddity of Sheldon" than some fans can comprehend”.  (waves arms, vocalises “does not compute, does not compute”). Boils down to preference in the end, nothing more. Nothing absolute.

In absolute terms Sheldon is a burden. Luckily for him, others are not as utilitarian as he is, and are prepared to carry the load. He is fortunate to enjoy their compassion. Not that they have a choice.   

I completely agree and couldn't have said it better. Sheldon is a burden on Leonard and Penny as they are unlucky to live either with him or across the hall from him. 

[Zephon75]

2 hours ago, SRAM said:

Your right, that is exactly how he and the show is written because like Howard said in a episode, it’s funny when it is not happening to us.  

There is a glaring difference how he is treated on the show than others though, like once Leonard is interviewed about Physics and he says that nothing is happening, we are then  led to believe his job is in danger when in real life scientists make controversial statements all the time and don’t lose their jobs.  But Sheldon can cover the board of directors on goo, act nasty and drive away donors, follow around and bug the president of the university, and act like an ass on radio and TV, but his job is never in danger.  I’m not interested in Sheldon getting a Nobel, I want to know who was protecting him at the university, all these years, from getting fired, thats the question I want answered.

 

Well said, It shows the difference in how both characters are portrayed we have Sheldon , who can be insulting ,mean, arrogant, condescending , and narscistic. Yet without Leonard would be alone and a hermit maybe even fired, and yet he is on the cusp of getting his dream of winning a Noble Prize. 

Then we have Leonard who befriended him after moving in with, gave Sheldon his current group of friends. Yet  Leonard himself isn't allowed any success. Other than being with Penny, his theory in season 8 was usurped by Sheldon , he gets put down by pretty much every member of the gang even though without him they wouldn't be all together. But worst of all his dream has been denied, and he has to sit back and watch Sheldon possibly get his dream. It is unfair to the character to be trashed so much by the writers more so in the later seasons. 

Even worse Leonard still rolled out to help Sheldon like in the last episode were Leonard & Penny got the Noble Laureates to come to the reception. It felt like Lenny were just Shamy side kicks , being trotted out to help Sheldon on his quest to fulfill his dream of being a Nobel Prize winner. 

Would Sheldon do the same in return? i highly doubt it

 

[hokie3457]

6 minutes ago, Zephon75 said:

Well said, It shows the difference in how both characters are portrayed we have Sheldon , who can be insulting ,mean, arrogant, condescending , and narscistic. Yet without Leonard would be alone and a hermit maybe even fired, and yet he is on the cusp of getting his dream of winning a Noble Prize. 

Then we have Leonard who befriended him after moving in with, gave Sheldon his current group of friends. Yet  Leonard himself isn't allowed any success. Other than being with Penny, his theory in season 8 was usurped by Sheldon , he gets put down by pretty much every member of the gang even though without him they wouldn't be all together. But worst of all his dream has been denied, and he has to sit back and watch Sheldon possibly get his dream. It is unfair to the character to be trashed so much by the writers more so in the later seasons. 

Even worse Leonard still rolled out to help Sheldon like in the last episode were Leonard & Penny got the Noble Laureates to come to the reception. It felt like Lenny were just Shamy side kicks , being trotted out to help Sheldon on his quest to fulfill his dream of being a Nobel Prize winner. 

Would Sheldon do the same in return? i highly doubt it

 

This is the crux of the problem many Leonard (and to some extent) Lenny fans have with the dominating attention paid to Sheldon (I know, I know.  It is what the world wants to see....). The constant kicking of a character.  Putting down his job and his success there.  Attacking his physical makeup.  Poking fun at his ailments (asthma; lactate intolerance).  Discussing him in a demeaning way with his mother.  Worst of all, the waiting for him to fail in is marriage/relationship with Penny.  "Oh! We know how this will end!" "In the future when you're divorced....".  I know.  Poor Sheldon gets made fun of all the time.  With Leonard, there is no payoff.  Yes.  He has Penny, the girl of his dreams.  But as Sheldon has insinuated, it is just a matter of time until they get divorced.....Oh well.  Tilting at windmills....

[veejay]

^^^   

At this time this isn't surprising anymore, is it? Obviously, it's enough for the writers that they've almost changed Sheldon beyond recognition (some called it "personal growth", LOL). I'm almost glad they didn't do that to Leonard (and Penny), too.

 

------------------------------------

@hokie3457   I guess we had a "thought transfer" in two threads at the same time. 🙂

Edited April 17, 2019 by veejay

[bfm]

1 hour ago, Zephon75 said:

Well said, It shows the difference in how both characters are portrayed we have Sheldon , who can be insulting ,mean, arrogant, condescending , and narscistic. Yet without Leonard would be alone and a hermit maybe even fired, and yet he is on the cusp of getting his dream of winning a Noble Prize. 

Then we have Leonard who befriended him after moving in with, gave Sheldon his current group of friends. Yet  Leonard himself isn't allowed any success. Other than being with Penny, his theory in season 8 was usurped by Sheldon , he gets put down by pretty much every member of the gang even though without him they wouldn't be all together. But worst of all his dream has been denied, and he has to sit back and watch Sheldon possibly get his dream. It is unfair to the character to be trashed so much by the writers more so in the later seasons. 

Even worse Leonard still rolled out to help Sheldon like in the last episode were Leonard & Penny got the Noble Laureates to come to the reception. It felt like Lenny were just Shamy side kicks , being trotted out to help Sheldon on his quest to fulfill his dream of being a Nobel Prize winner. 

Would Sheldon do the same in return? i highly doubt it

 

To add insult to injury, the show may end with Amy announcing she's pregnant. What could've been done so easily with Lenny, but instead the writers decided to flip Penny in a way that doesn't make any sense and leave them with a huge burden for life. But hey, they'll be there to babysit for the mighty Shamy! Rejoice!

[Nogravitasatall]

2 minutes ago, bfm said:

To add insult to injury, the show may end with Amy announcing she's pregnant. What could've been done so easily with Lenny, but instead the writers decided to flip Penny in a way that doesn't make any sense and leave them with a huge burden for life. But hey, they'll be there to babysit for the mighty Shamy! Rejoice!

Huzzah. They do have a purpose. Phew. And I’d worried. Thanks. 

But don’t despair. It’s funnier that way. /s

[veejay]

^^

Hey, if you don't stop your sarcasm soon, I will be forced to flee with Penny.  🙂

[Swedish Chef]

31 minutes ago, bfm said:

To add insult to injury, the show may end with Amy announcing she's pregnant. What could've been done so easily with Lenny, but instead the writers decided to flip Penny in a way that doesn't make any sense and leave them with a huge burden for life. But hey, they'll be there to babysit for the mighty Shamy! Rejoice!

Don't forget that Leonard has Penny, what more could he possibly need.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Swedish Chef

[chucky]

12 minutes ago, veejay said:

Hey, if you don't stop your sarcasm soon, I will be forced to flee with Penny.

Can I go too? 

2 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

Don't forget that Leonard has Penny, what more could he possible need.

To get the hell away from Sheldon. 

[veejay]

11 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

Don't forget that Leonard has Penny, what more could he possibly need.

All right, I’ll take him with me. 😉

[chucky]

2 minutes ago, veejay said:

All right, I’ll take him with me. 😉

As long as he gets away from you know who!

[Swedish Chef]

5 minutes ago, veejay said:

All right, I’ll take him with me. 😉

I'm not so sure about the car.

[veejay]

8 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

I'm not so sure about the car.

It's a frensh classic, dude! 🙄

[Mario D.]

17 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

That’s a part of it, I think. Competition. But they didn’t use the same model for Sheldon. He often gets the win. He gets what he wants. In this case, if you are attracted to the Shamy story, you get a reinforcement from the wins. With Sheldon, it’s more like “wins are great,  give ‘em more of that”.  Leonard’s wins are scarce. Maybe that makes them more valuable.

Maybe it’s simply a matter of popularity. Perhaps more people were engaged by the broad oddity of Sheldon, rather than the specificity of the particular realisation of the “guy playing out of his league” trope of L/P. And I’d (biasedly) characterise that specificity as being a combination of the particular charm of the actors, the absolute determination of the characters to persevere and the nature of the flipped roles  (Leonard nurtures, Penny kills spiders). That might not have had the legs to go long, compared to mining Sheldon’s possibilities.

So, we didn’t get to see Leonard lauded, or to lord it over the defeated ogre, as some may have wished. Upside: we got to see L/P for 12 season, imperfect as their presentation was.

I wonder if any of the creatives wished they had gone other ways, or if they are just happy with their extraordinary success, with no regrets.

I would have to say that yes, Sheldon always seems to win, no matter what it is; games (chess with Leonard, his self invented car games, comic book  topics (with Stuart when he had a date with Penny) or getting his way with his friends (the table polarization, the baby wins) They always seem to make Sheldon persevere and the other characters just go along with his demands.  While I like Jim Parsons portrayal of Sheldon I must admit that his character has worn me down after 12 years. With all his insults, condesencion and OCD he has just become unlikeable to me.

[bfm]

51 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

Don't forget that Leonard has Penny, what more could he possibly need.

Oh right! Because you know, she's a trophy, once you got The Hot Girl you just have to shut up and thank your lucky starts. Having similar life goals and not carrying big baggages (made out of thin air)? Pfft as if that matters...

 

<To clarify, my qualms are against the writers. Always.>

[Swedish Chef]

2 minutes ago, bfm said:

<To clarify, my qualms are against the writers. Always.>

No worries, I feel just the same as you.

[veejay]

^^

It's a bumpy road until the bitter end but those two are more than worth it.