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1 hour ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

If we're trying to decide how Sheldon is changed to see how it will relate to how he behaves in the new season, perhaps this discussion is valid in the season twelve thread. I am going to go on this assumption. So let's see some opinions. Was Sheldon a good friend at any of these points in the show?

1. Fuzzy Boots Corollary when he tried to cheer Leonard up after Leslie turned him down by suggesting he ask out Penny.

2. Loubenfeld Decoy when he is worried about the flimsy lie Leonard tells Penny to get out of having to see her in a musical.

3. Peanut Reaction when he goes with Penny to help her pick out a present for Leonard.

4. Barbarian Simulation when he tried to help Penny's depression by introducing her to online gaming.

5. White Asparagus Triangulation when he liked Leonard's new girlfriend and tried to keep them together.

6. Financial Permeability when he loans Penny money.

7. Work Song Nanocluster when he helps Penny with her home business.

8. Cornhusker Vortex  when he tried to teach Leonard about football when Leonard feels left out among Penny's friends,.

9. Adhesive Duck Deficiency when he helps Penny when she is hurt.

10., Gorilla Experiment when he tried to teach Penny physics so she will understand Leonard's work.

11. Irish Pub Formulation when he tried to help Leonard keep his relationship with Priya a secret.

12. Isolation Pormutation when he tried to comfort Amy when Penny and Bernadette leave her out of dress shopping.

13. Date Night Variable when Raj is depressed and Sheldon invites him along on his and Amy's date so he won't be lonely.

14. Fish Guts Displacement when he took care of Amy when she was sick.

15. Hofstadter Insufficiency when he and Penny hang out while Leonard is away and they both miss him.

16. Anything Can Happen Recurrence when he spends the evening with Penny when she gets upset with the other girls.

17. Hook Up Reverberation when he and the other guys consider investing in the comic book store to help Stuart reopen.,

18. Application Deterioration when he offered to donate 1/4 of his profits to a college fund for the Howardette baby.

19. Romance Recalibration when he offered to draft a relationship agreement to help improve the Lenny marriage.

20. Comic Con Conundrum when he offered to help Raj with his finances.

21. Explosion Implosion when he builds the model rocket with Howard, who is worried bout raising another child.

I had more but this was getting too long already. Are any of these proof of friendship?

 

You could construe that most of these points were friendship oriented, however if you analyze what preceded these actions as a reaction to some other action or statement it kind of loses its sincerity. The ones that I would consider real friendship would be no.6 when he loans Penny money and no.18 when he offers to donate to a college fund for Howardette's baby.

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2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

If we're trying to decide how Sheldon is changed to see how it will relate to how he behaves in the new season, perhaps this discussion is valid in the season twelve thread. I am going to go on this assumption. So let's see some opinions. Was Sheldon a good friend at any of these points in the show?

1. Fuzzy Boots Corollary when he tried to cheer Leonard up after Leslie turned him down by suggesting he ask out Penny.

2. Loubenfeld Decoy when he is worried about the flimsy lie Leonard tells Penny to get out of having to see her in a musical.

3. Peanut Reaction when he goes with Penny to help her pick out a present for Leonard.

4. Barbarian Simulation when he tried to help Penny's depression by introducing her to online gaming.

5. White Asparagus Triangulation when he liked Leonard's new girlfriend and tried to keep them together.

6. Financial Permeability when he loans Penny money.

7. Work Song Nanocluster when he helps Penny with her home business.

8. Cornhusker Vortex  when he tried to teach Leonard about football when Leonard feels left out among Penny's friends,.

9. Adhesive Duck Deficiency when he helps Penny when she is hurt.

10., Gorilla Experiment when he tried to teach Penny physics so she will understand Leonard's work.

11. Irish Pub Formulation when he tried to help Leonard keep his relationship with Priya a secret.

12. Isolation Pormutation when he tried to comfort Amy when Penny and Bernadette leave her out of dress shopping.

13. Date Night Variable when Raj is depressed and Sheldon invites him along on his and Amy's date so he won't be lonely.

14. Fish Guts Displacement when he took care of Amy when she was sick.

15. Hofstadter Insufficiency when he and Penny hang out while Leonard is away and they both miss him.

16. Anything Can Happen Recurrence when he spends the evening with Penny when she gets upset with the other girls.

17. Hook Up Reverberation when he and the other guys consider investing in the comic book store to help Stuart reopen.,

18. Application Deterioration when he offered to donate 1/4 of his profits to a college fund for the Howardette baby.

19. Romance Recalibration when he offered to draft a relationship agreement to help improve the Lenny marriage.

20. Comic Con Conundrum when he offered to help Raj with his finances.

21. Explosion Implosion when he builds the model rocket with Howard, who is worried bout raising another child.

I had more but this was getting too long already. Are any of these proof of friendship?

 

You don’t base a friendship on how it benefits you or in the case of Amy a written agreement

Edited by Chrismo
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3 hours ago, Mario D. said:

The ones that I would consider real friendship would be no.6 when he loans Penny money and no.18 when he offers to donate to a college fund for Howardette's baby.

I would agree totally with both of those.

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10 hours ago, Mario D. said:

After writing that comment I recalled some of the instances where Sheldon kept a secret for his benefit:  When he made Leonard wear that sweater. He kept the secret that he paid the late fees years before.  When he kept secret that he went to Leonard's mothers birthday party and didn't tell him. How can a best friend and roommate keep that kind of a secret?  Just disgraceful especially when Leonard's own brother and sister were invited!   And when he kept secret that he learned how to drive...even from Amy  because he felt important to have people chauffeur him around!  Is this the definition of a friend?

I don't know about anybody else's book, but in mine, at least, that's the definition of an asshole.

Edited by Carlos
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2 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

1. Fuzzy Boots Corollary when he tried to cheer Leonard up after Leslie turned him down by suggesting he ask out Penny.

Friendship oriented, though not totally selfless.

2. Loubenfeld Decoy when he is worried about the flimsy lie Leonard tells Penny to get out of having to see her in a musical.

That's his OCD and nothing else.

3. Peanut Reaction when he goes with Penny to help her pick out a present for Leonard.

Wasn't he coerced to do this by Penny?

4. Barbarian Simulation when he tried to help Penny's depression by introducing her to online gaming.

He was just trying to get her to stop bothering him.

5. White Asparagus Triangulation when he liked Leonard's new girlfriend and tried to keep them together.

Only because he liked her.

6. Financial Permeability when he loans Penny money.

Good friend.

7. Work Song Nanocluster when he helps Penny with her home business.

Good friend.

8. Cornhusker Vortex  when he tried to teach Leonard about football when Leonard feels left out among Penny's friends.

Only because he knows football. Nothing too difficult, Now was it?

9. Adhesive Duck Deficiency when he helps Penny when she is hurt.

She asked him to.

10., Gorilla Experiment when he tried to teach Penny physics so she will understand Leonard's work.

Penny asked him and he used the opportunity to criticize and demean Leonard's work.

11. Irish Pub Formulation when he tried to help Leonard keep his relationship with Priya a secret.

Don't remember this one.

12. Isolation Pormutation when he tried to comfort Amy when Penny and Bernadette leave her out of dress shopping.

??

13. Date Night Variable when Raj is depressed and Sheldon invites him along on his and Amy's date so he won't be lonely.

??

14. Fish Guts Displacement when he took care of Amy when she was sick.

Only because he was required to by the relationship agreement.

15. Hofstadter Insufficiency when he and Penny hang out while Leonard is away and they both miss him.

OK, so...

16. Anything Can Happen Recurrence when he spends the evening with Penny when she gets upset with the other girls.

Is that really a lot?

17. Hook Up Reverberation when he and the other guys consider investing in the comic book store to help Stuart reopen.,

For his own benefit and not because he really cared about Stuart.

18. Application Deterioration when he offered to donate 1/4 of his profits to a college fund for the Howardette baby.

Good friend.

19. Romance Recalibration when he offered to draft a relationship agreement to help improve the Lenny marriage.

Just another way of inserting himself in Lenny's relationship.

20. Comic Con Conundrum when he offered to help Raj with his finances.

Another way to feel superior.

21. Explosion Implosion when he builds the model rocket with Howard, who is worried bout raising another child.

Not too much of an effort, imo, but friendship oriented.

 

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2 hours ago, Carlos said:

 

12. relationship agreement, complained about having to do it.

12 Used Raj as a loop hole in date night.

 

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@ all of the above,

if Sheldon were a good friend he would have voluntarily gotten out from between a husband and wife, instead of inserting himself so predominately into the relationship, both physically and emotionally. 

No wonder Leonard can’t extricate himself and his wife, or Penny make herself get away with her husband. They had to support (prop up) Sheldon. Even now, after marriage, Sheldon hasn’t moved away with his own wife to live independently. He’s reliant on his props and he has taught Amy to prop up his dependent lifestyle too.

They wouldn’t have a show otherwise, but hey... independence must be coming. Unless it’s an S13 thing.

😀

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6 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

 

I would agree totally with both of those.

Remember when he made penny a hot beverage and brought it to her apt. When she was upset Leonard told her he kissed another girl. He was a great friend to her. 

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6 hours ago, chucky said:

12. relationship agreement, complained about having to do it.

12 Used Raj as a loop hole in date night.

 

Thanks. You're right !

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1 hour ago, vonmar said:

A sitcom needs an antagonist in the mix.  That is Sheldon's role.  

If TBBT had been about Penny, Leonard and Leonard's extremely polite and considerate genius room mate where would the show have gone....no where.

So even as they have evolved Sheldon, they continue to use him as the antagonist to create humor. 

Yes. He is the antagonist. The fly in the ointment. And they wouldn’t have a show without him. But it might be remiss  to defend the character and not acknowledge that his presence and actions create the situations. The comedic construct they inhabit is just that. He is a manufactured character in a manufactured situation and they are all are trapped in the framework of the show. 

If you enjoy Sheldon then embrace him. Sure.  He wouldn’t need defending if he weren’t mostly the instigator. And if you like him, well, that’s preference. In the framework of the show he has to be just irritating enough not seem truly avoidable, but it’s hard to say that he is truly someone you might choose to live permanently adjacent to, given choices. Leonard doesn’t have a choice. He is in until the end.

And, I contend that objectively,  if Sheldon had been a truly good friend he would have tried to be a bit less selfish and a bit more selfless - and moved further away than across the hall. And yes it could have all ended earlier. Maybe I’d be happier if it had. But they kept it going. Well done them. It’s a great feat.

14 minutes ago, smellypooper73 said:

Amen.

There are lots of positive commentary around, if you look. And the threads are pretty well policed.

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13 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Yes. He is the antagonist. The fly in the ointment. And they wouldn’t have a show without him. But it might be remiss  to defend the character and not acknowledge that his presence and actions create the situations. The comedic construct they inhabit is just that. He is a manufactured character in a manufactured situation and they are all are trapped in the framework of the show. 

If you enjoy Sheldon then embrace him. Sure.  He wouldn’t need defending if he weren’t mostly the instigator. And if you like him, well, that’s preference. In the framework of the show he has to be just irritating enough not seem truly avoidable, but it’s hard to say that he is truly someone you might choose to live permanently adjacent to, given choices. Leonard doesn’t have a choice. He is in until the end.

And, I contend that objectively,  if Sheldon had been a truly good friend he would have tried to be a bit less selfish and a bit more selfless - and moved further away than across the hall. And yes it could have all ended earlier. Maybe I’d be happier if it had. But they kept it going. Well done them. It’s a great feat.

The creators, EPs, writers etc want to keep the L/P and S/A neighbor thing going.  They want the 4A/4B back and forth to keep happening. They want the iconic sets front and center.  It's not about the character of Sheldon being a "good friend" it's about keeping eyes on the screen.

Edited by vonmar
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3 hours ago, vonmar said:

The creators, EPs, writers etc want to keep the L/P and S/A neighbor thing going.  They want the 4A/4B back and forth to keep happening. They want the iconic sets front and center.  It's not about the character of Sheldon being a "good friend" it's about keeping eyes on the screen.

Exactly. 

Edit:

outside the show’s reality, in this universe Sheldon is necessary. Otherwise that universe collapses.

Inside the show’s reality he is a really difficult troublemaker without whom most characters in the show would probably have less troubled lives, especially if they only related to him professionally or outside domestic circumstances. Leonard could get in the car and visit him, for instance. Leonard’s marriage would probably be better for that.

(trying to give you a better answer, @chucky :) )

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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18 minutes ago, Carlos said:

A tiny example and a very recent one too, is the fact that Leonard didn't interrupt Shamy's wedding and make it about himself. If you remember Sheldon made Lenny's second wedding about himself by literally inserting himself between Leonard and Penny. If we go by Lenny's first wedding he made everybody's life miserable so no one could  watch it in peace, making everything again about himself . Some friend!

 

I'll give you that about the first wedding because even I agree he made it about himself, but the second wedding not so much because if you want to say that Sheldon made it about himself, then so did Alfred becaus he did the exact same thing as Sheldon did and interrupted the ceremony, besides if I recall correctly Leonard and Penny didn't seem to mind that Sheldon intruded on their second wedding, also Sheldon's exact quote from the scene where he intruded was "excuse me, I would like to say something to someone pretty special and it just can't wait any longer.... Leonard" so to me that's not a huge intrusion, what would have been was if he had proposed to Amy then, now that would have truly ruined the wedding.

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58 minutes ago, Sah said:

Remember when he made penny a hot beverage and brought it to her apt. When she was upset Leonard told her he kissed another girl. He was a great friend to her. 

If I recall the real reason was he wanted to talk about his break up with AMy. Didn’t he walk out of 4B before she had the hot beverage? 

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55 minutes ago, vonmar said:

The creators, EPs, writers etc want to keep the L/P and S/A neighbor thing going.  They want the 4A/4B back and forth to keep happening. They want the iconic sets front and center.  It's not about the character of Sheldon being a "good friend" it's about keeping eyes on the screen.

So it seems to me you are saying the people who are attacking him and the ones who are defending him are both wrong.

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1 hour ago, BobtheBlob said:

I'll give you that about the first wedding because even I agree he made it about himself, but the second wedding not so much because if you want to say that Sheldon made it about himself, then so did Alfred becaus he did the exact same thing as Sheldon did and interrupted the ceremony, besides if I recall correctly Leonard and Penny didn't seem to mind that Sheldon intruded on their second wedding, also Sheldon's exact quote from the scene where he intruded was "excuse me, I would like to say something to someone pretty special and it just can't wait any longer.... Leonard" so to me that's not a huge intrusion, what would have been was if he had proposed to Amy then, now that would have truly ruined the wedding.

At least Alfred didn't go up go up front and force himself in the ceremony. Everything Sheldon said or did could have waited til after the ceremony. Probably what Alfred said as well.

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2 hours ago, vonmar said:

It seems to me he is a character on a TV show who acts the way he does because he is written that way.

I'm a Shamy and I swoon over their sweet moments, because they were (IMO) done so in character. Not because I believe this how real people should act.

They are not real people and to hold them to that standard is unrealistic

That’s the same principle for all the characters you would agree than? Shamy bore me. But that’s not to say I hate them. 

Not sure I agree too that Sheldon interrupting Lenny’s both weddings. Can’t be deemed as in appropriate on Sheldon’s behalf. Because Lenny did not call him out on it. Why would they? They are nice people lol. Have they ever called out Sheldon on his behaviour? I only recall Bernadette ever. I thought the second wedding was worser. He invaded their nuptials. And their vows. Compare this to Shamys wedding. Where it went seemlees with no interruptions at all. 

 

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5 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Exactly. 

Edit:

outside the show’s reality, in this universe Sheldon is necessary. Otherwise that universe collapses.

Inside the show’s reality he is a really difficult troublemaker without whom most characters in the show would probably have less troubled lives, especially if they only related to him professionally or outside domestic circumstances. Leonard could get in the car and visit him, for instance. Leonard’s marriage would probably be better for that.

(trying to give you a better answer, @chucky :) )

Okay

1 hour ago, 3ku11 said:

That’s the same principle for all the characters you would agree than? Shamy bore me. But that’s not to say I hate them. 

Not sure I agree too that Sheldon interrupting Lenny’s both weddings. Can’t be deemed as in appropriate on Sheldon’s behalf. Because Lenny did not call him out on it. Why would they? They are nice people lol. Have they ever called out Sheldon on his behaviour? I only recall Bernadette ever. I thought the second wedding was worser. He invaded their nuptials. And their vows. Compare this to Shamys wedding. Where it went seemlees with no interruptions at all. 

 

Agreed!

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11 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

if Sheldon were a good friend he would have voluntarily gotten out from between a husband and wife, instead of inserting himself so predominately into the relationship, both physically and emotionally. 

Leonard was ready to have him move out when they married and PENNY is the one who said he could stay. No one has ever been able to explain that one to me.

 

8 hours ago, BobtheBlob said:

I'll give you that about the first wedding because even I agree he made it about himself, but the second wedding not so much because if you want to say that Sheldon made it about himself, then so did Alfred becaus he did the exact same thing as Sheldon did and interrupted the ceremony, besides if I recall correctly Leonard and Penny didn't seem to mind that Sheldon intruded on their second wedding, also Sheldon's exact quote from the scene where he intruded was "excuse me, I would like to say something to someone pretty special and it just can't wait any longer.... Leonard" so to me that's not a huge intrusion, what would have been was if he had proposed to Amy then, now that would have truly ruined the wedding.

Plus Bernadette asked at the second wedding if anyone had anything to say and that opened the door for things to be said. That option should never have been given.

 

9 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Yes. He is the antagonist. The fly in the ointment. And they wouldn’t have a show without him. But it might be remiss  to defend the character and not acknowledge that his presence and actions create the situations. 

That is what I mean by saying he's the linchpin of the show. A majority of what happens has always happened because of him or the other character's reaction to him. That's why they won't go on without Jim.

8 hours ago, vonmar said:

They are not real people and to hold them to that standard is unrealistic

This reminds me of an interview that Sarah Michelle Gellar once did about Buffy. Someone was complaining about the actions of a character and she said, "You do know they're not real, right?" Sheldon is not real so I can't hate him or any other character on the show the way I would hate a real person who behaves badly. There is one character that I have never liked much of anything at all about, but I don't go around telling fans of that character what a horrible character they are admiring. The character has been an integral part of many scenes and I acknowledge that, as I acknowledge that the feelings of those fans are very real to them. Now it gets tricky when they are playing themselves, as often happens on this show, but I think even then we have to treat them as characters and not as their real selves.

Edited by Die Zimtzicke
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34 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Leonard was ready to have him move out when they married and PENNY is the one who said he could stay. No one has ever been able to explain that one to me.

There's only one reason, The writers! They didn't know then how to make it work Lenny in one apartment and Sheldon in the other. Shamy was broken up and couldn't live together then.

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1 minute ago, chucky said:

There's only one reason, The writers! They didn't know then how to make it work Lenny in one apartment and Sheldon in the other. Shamy was broken up and couldn't live together then.

If the show was written differently, Or better IMO, the dislike for Sheldon would be quite a bit less.

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38 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Plus Bernadette asked at the second wedding if anyone had anything to say and that opened the door for things to be said.

Sheldon should have stood up and said his piece, not go to the front and thrust his ass in the proceedings, just as Alfred did. But that wouldn't have been funny, huh!

Just now, Chrismo said:

If the show was written differently, Or better IMO, the dislike for Sheldon would be quite a bit less.

Bingo!

8 hours ago, vonmar said:

It seems to me he is a character on a TV show who acts the way he does because he is written that way.

Exactly, the writers throw common sense out the window in favor of comedy. Sometimes that works and at times it don't. Writers have to know when it's right.

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Did anyone read the article on Screen Rant about the show. The 5 casting decisions that hurt the show and the 15 that saved it.

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45 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

 

 

Plus Bernadette asked at the second wedding if anyone had anything to say and that opened the door for things to be said. That option should never have been given.

That is what I mean by saying he's the linchpin of the show. A majority of what happens has always happened because of him or the other character's reaction to him. That's why they won't go on without Jim.

 

Wasn't this more of a sarcastic question/remark from Bernadette?  Regardless, it was not an invitation for SLC to come down to the front of the proceedings and push his way front and center, leaving Bernadette to finish by saying "I now pronounce you man and wife and weird other man who came with the apartment" or words to that effect.

 

And of course he is the antagonist; the linchpin.  It doesn't mean that I have to like it or like him or be a fan of is character.  I'm not.  His actions so often ruing things that I am watching without any extreme consequence.  Meanwhile, his wedding is a storybook affair.  When someone is about to jump ugly (Mrs. Fowler) people (Penny) jump to his defense.  Okay.  Getting myself worked up.  Just would like a handful of tag scenes that don't include SLC.  At all.  Okay rant done for now.  Sheesh......(sorry)

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1 minute ago, Chrismo said:

Did anyone read the article on Screen Rant about the show. The 5 casting decisions that hurt the show and the 15 that saved it.

No, haven't seen it!

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