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Non-Season 12 Show Discussion

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Just now, chucky said:

Personally, I feel that was Leonard being sarcastic. Everybody knows Raj was Howard's friend. Raj just tagged along with Howard!

Raj being Howard's friend doesn't prevent him from being Leonard's friend, too. You can have more than one friend, funny that!

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Just now, April said:

Raj being Howard's friend doesn't prevent him from being Leonard's friend, too. You can have more than one friend, funny that!

I never said he wasn't friends, there wasn't anything special about their friendship that would cause Leonard to be upset about. Now Penny is a different matter. She is his wife and best friend. Big difference between Raj and Penny.

2 minutes ago, veejay said:

That's an individual interpretation, based on just one sentence. The whole development within the episode resulted in a different picture for me.

Your opinion is your opinion. My opinion is mine.

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21 minutes ago, April said:

Just throwing this in here:

Leonard: "I know, but he was my friend first. It’s like she’s stealing him and they’re just having the best time doing all their dumb girly stuff together."

Leonard's complaint wasn't so much that Penny ignored him but rather that Raj ignored him and didn't do fun non-girly stuff with him.

Yeah apperantly the writers think they're in forth grade LOL 

 

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1 minute ago, bfm said:

Yeah apperantly the writers think they're in forth grade LOL

Oh yes! That's like my go to explanation for a lot of things in this show. lol

8 minutes ago, chucky said:

I never said he wasn't friends, there wasn't anything special about their friendship that would cause Leonard to be upset about. Now Penny is a different matter. She is his wife and best friend. Big difference between Raj and Penny.

It's not about Leonard having a more special relationship with Penny. It's that Leonard thinks Raj should have a more special friendship with him than with Penny.

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16 minutes ago, chucky said:

Your opinion is your opinion. My opinion is mine.

I'm sorry, my bad. I was distracted and actually wanted to reply to April's post.
The quote function screwed me again.

 

32 minutes ago, April said:

Just throwing this in here:

Leonard: "I know, but he was my friend first. It’s like she’s stealing him and they’re just having the best time doing all their dumb girly stuff together."

Leonard's complaint wasn't so much that Penny ignored him but rather that Raj ignored him and didn't do fun non-girly stuff with him.

That's an individual interpretation, based on just one sentence. The whole development within the episode resulted in a different picture for me.

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2 minutes ago, veejay said:

That's an individual interpretation, based on just one sentence. The whole development within the episode resulted in a different picture for me.

Well, that whole episode just reinforced that interpretation for me as Leonard was only complaining about the girly stuff and/or making sure how little he cared about anything Penny liked to do. Heck, there was even a deleted scene where they went book shopping and Leonard was happy cause it was something he enjoyed while Penny was bored. So there.

But disagree all you want.

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2 minutes ago, April said:

Well, that whole episode just reinforced that interpretation for me as Leonard was only complaining about the girly stuff and/or making sure how little he cared about anything Penny liked to do. Heck, there was even a deleted scene where they went book shopping and Leonard was happy cause it was something he enjoyed while Penny was bored. So there.

But disagree all you want.

Yeah, but we are happy together. 😉

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1 hour ago, April said:

Oh yes! That's like my go to explanation for a lot of things in this show. lol

It's not about Leonard having a more special relationship with Penny. It's that Leonard thinks Raj should have a more special friendship with him than with Penny.

Your opinion and I disagree with you!

1 hour ago, veejay said:

happy together

Nice "Turtles" song from the 60's.

1 hour ago, April said:

But disagree all you want.

Not to worry, because I do disagree!

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On 10/15/2018 at 8:01 PM, April said:

there was even a deleted scene where they went book shopping and Leonard was happy cause it was something he enjoyed while Penny was bored.

Damn good thing that was deleted. It shows how crap the writers have become about Penny. In one of the lovely Lenny scenes back when TBBT really was TBBT, Penny remembered going to a bookshop with L and how much he wanted the first edition of The Hitch-hikers Guide he saw there. She forgot that he actually bought it on the spot, but the story showed she wasn't bored doing what L liked. It seems the writers and showrunners now delight in revisiting the best old Lenny scenes and trashing them.

As for the period when Raj was living in 4A, I really hate that because that's where Raj tried to rape Penny when she was too drunk to give or withold consent. Do the writers intend to indicate there's something wrong with L, or do they just not bother?

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1 minute ago, JohnPhD said:

Damn good thing that was deleted. It shows how crap the writers have become about Penny. In one of the lovely Lenny scenes back when TBBT really was TBBT, Penny remembered going to a bookshop with L and how much he wanted the first edition of The Hitch-hikers Guide he saw there. She forgot that he actually bought it on the spot, but the story showed she wasn't bored doing what L liked. It seems the writers and showrunners now delight in revisiting the best old Lenny scenes and trashing them.

As for the period when Raj was living in 4A, I really hate that because that's where Raj tried to rape Penny when she was too drunk to give or withold consent. Do the writers intend to indicate there's something wrong with L, or do they just not bother?

They don't care! It's obvious that they don't care enough to even bother to check what was written in earlier episodes!

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On 12/14/2018 at 2:16 PM, Chrismo said:

Since Raj was upset about Anu's ex does she know about his hook up with Penny?

 

It may have been a "hook-up" in TBBT-world (where campus rape was a suitable subject for a joke)  but in real-world terms it was attempted rape.

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3 hours ago, JohnPhD said:

It may have been a "hook-up" in TBBT-world (where campus rape was a suitable subject for a joke)  but in real-world terms it was attempted rape.

It was NOT in any way an "attempted rape".

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16 minutes ago, BigBang15 said:

It was NOT in any way an "attempted rape".

California Law disagree's with you.  Then (2011) and now, impaired people cannot legally give consent to have sex, so having sex with an impaired person is considered rape (and people have been tried and convicted in California and other states who have similar laws).   Raj's attempt to have sex with Penny, who was legally impaired (blackouts start above the legal limit in California), could be considered rape.  That they didn't finish the act leaves it as attempted rape.  

 Now, in the show it was played for laughs, and as a plot point.  As John said, in TBBT it's simply considered a drunken hookup. But, in the real world (something John was specific about) and whether or not you want to get into the legalities (such as it wasn't reported, or Raj wasn't arrested) doesn't change the fact that legally, it was attempted rape.   

The same applies to something that happened to Raj.   Although it was played for laughs, Howard's mother, pulling him back into the house to prevent him from leaving, can be considered the felony of, Unlawful Restraint.     

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17 minutes ago, Tensor said:

California Law disagree's with you.  Then (2011) and now, impaired people cannot legally give consent to have sex, so having sex with an impaired person is considered rape (and people have been tried and convicted in California and other states who have similar laws).   Raj's attempt to have sex with Penny, who was legally impaired (blackouts start above the legal limit in California), could be considered rape.  That they didn't finish the act leaves it as attempted rape.  

 Now, in the show it was played for laughs, and as a plot point.  As John said, in TBBT it's simply considered a drunken hookup. But, in the real world (something John was specific about) and whether or not you want to get into the legalities (such as it wasn't reported, or Raj wasn't arrested) doesn't change the fact that legally, it was attempted rape.   

The same applies to something that happened to Raj.   Although it was played for laughs, Howard's mother, pulling him back into the house to prevent him from leaving, can be considered the felony of, Unlawful Restraint.     

TPTB like to play loosely with the law for comedy's sake!

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21 minutes ago, chucky said:

TPTB like to play loosely with the law for comedy's sake!

Oh, I know that.  But John specifically and separately stated how it was played in the TBBT world, and what it legally was in the real world.

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Would Raj have a defence in that he was insufficiently compos mentis himself to make a judgement as to which of them was the less capable of consent ?  Believing the woman consented has always been a defence. Penny was the one who couldn't remember much afterwards but considering Raj remembered she asked him about 'protection' she must have had an idea about what was going on. That's if Raj was telling the truth and remembering it properly. 

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11 hours ago, Tensor said:

California Law disagree's with you.  Then (2011) and now, impaired people cannot legally give consent to have sex, so having sex with an impaired person is considered rape (and people have been tried and convicted in California and other states who have similar laws).   Raj's attempt to have sex with Penny, who was legally impaired (blackouts start above the legal limit in California), could be considered rape.  That they didn't finish the act leaves it as attempted rape.  

 Now, in the show it was played for laughs, and as a plot point.  As John said, in TBBT it's simply considered a drunken hookup. But, in the real world (something John was specific about) and whether or not you want to get into the legalities (such as it wasn't reported, or Raj wasn't arrested) doesn't change the fact that legally, it was attempted rape.   

The same applies to something that happened to Raj.   Although it was played for laughs, Howard's mother, pulling him back into the house to prevent him from leaving, can be considered the felony of, Unlawful Restraint.     

Tensor, can you comment on this:  I don't recall exactly where I heard this but that episode S4E24 upset many, many people even the cast themselves as they admitted there was nearly fight with the writers.  I heard that tptb received alot of negative comments from viewers that over the summer they rewrote the S5E1 storyline to show that Raj and Penny did not have sex.  I just wonder how accurate this explanation is.

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21 minutes ago, Swedish Chef said:

When there is nothing else to discuss, we can always go back and discuss season 4 finale. :icon_cheesygrin:

Or the entire Season 6!  8)

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1 hour ago, Mario D. said:

Tensor, can you comment on this:  I don't recall exactly where I heard this but that episode S4E24 upset many, many people even the cast themselves as they admitted there was nearly fight with the writers.  I heard that tptb received alot of negative comments from viewers that over the summer they rewrote the S5E1 storyline to show that Raj and Penny did not have sex.  I just wonder how accurate this explanation is.

Yes, there were many fans that were upset by the ending, and let their feelings be known.   There was not a fight with the writers, however, Johnny and Simon were mad at Kunal.  Kunal pointed out that it wasn't him they should be mad at.  Both Johnny and Simon were aware that their anger at Kunal was irrational and quickly got over it.  

While there were  fans that were unhappy, I'm not sure the writers rewrote anything.  At Comic-con, Bill Prady said he felt that whatever side you came down on (did they or didn't they), you should be happy with the resolution.   Comic-con happens within two to three weeks of the writers going back, so they probably had the first episode roughed out, and there was no need to to rewrite.  Now, whether or not they wrote the first episode the way they did because of the reactions of the fans, is something we may never know.  For all we know, they had several different resolutions in mind at the end of season four, and they may have chosen one, based on fan reaction or chose another based on their discussion when they got back to work.

  As it was, many thought the resolution was a cop out.  Let face it, if you throw out the legalities, and just go with an in universe hook-up, what exactly does it mean for Penny to help put the condom on?   They had kissed, they were naked, she was holding his junk, causing him to orgasm, how different from actually having sex is this?  Not much.   That said, Penny didn't cheat on Leonard.  She was single, he was in a relationship, so she was free to have sex with anyone she wanted.   Whether or not she would have wanted to have sex with Raj, if she was unimpaired is another matter.      YMMV.    

As much as I get upset with Lenny's depiction these days, that particular episode did not bother me.   As season five went along, I came to see it as a way to keep Penny and Leonard apart, as I don't think the writers (or TPTB) were ready to get them back together again, at the beginning of the season.  I mean Leonard made out (and almost had sex with) a woman he had just met, while Priya was in India.  If the night with Raj hadn't happened, and Leonard found out Penny still had feelings for him, do you really think Priya would have mattered to Leonard?  

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16 minutes ago, Tensor said:

There was not a fight with the writers, however, Johnny and Simon were mad at Kunal.  Kunal pointed out that it wasn't him they should be mad at.  Both Johnny and Simon were aware that their anger at Kunal was irrational and quickly got over it.  

 

Was this serious? I saw an interview from back then and they said something about that but it seemed liek they were joking.

 

 

I can only imagine the outrage if 04X24 and 05X01 were produced today. Not only did they not recognize the huge problem with the events, they also blamed the victim! They actually had Penny talk about how she becomes "a skank" (I think these were Amy's words, but Penny did not protest too much) when she drinks. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.  

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42 minutes ago, Tensor said:

If the night with Raj hadn't happened, and Leonard found out Penny still had feelings for him, do you really think Priya would have mattered to Leonard?  

Damn good question. I don't think Leonard would have remembered who Pryia was in that scenario.

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3 hours ago, Tensor said:

Yes, there were many fans that were upset by the ending, and let their feelings be known.   There was not a fight with the writers, however, Johnny and Simon were mad at Kunal.  Kunal pointed out that it wasn't him they should be mad at.  Both Johnny and Simon were aware that their anger at Kunal was irrational and quickly got over it.  

While there were  fans that were unhappy, I'm not sure the writers rewrote anything.  At Comic-con, Bill Prady said he felt that whatever side you came down on (did they or didn't they), you should be happy with the resolution.   Comic-con happens within two to three weeks of the writers going back, so they probably had the first episode roughed out, and there was no need to to rewrite.  Now, whether or not they wrote the first episode the way they did because of the reactions of the fans, is something we may never know.  For all we know, they had several different resolutions in mind at the end of season four, and they may have chosen one, based on fan reaction or chose another based on their discussion when they got back to work.

  As it was, many thought the resolution was a cop out.  Let face it, if you throw out the legalities, and just go with an in universe hook-up, what exactly does it mean for Penny to help put the condom on?   They had kissed, they were naked, she was holding his junk, causing him to orgasm, how different from actually having sex is this?  Not much.   That said, Penny didn't cheat on Leonard.  She was single, he was in a relationship, so she was free to have sex with anyone she wanted.   Whether or not she would have wanted to have sex with Raj, if she was unimpaired is another matter.      YMMV.    

As much as I get upset with Lenny's depiction these days, that particular episode did not bother me.   As season five went along, I came to see it as a way to keep Penny and Leonard apart, as I don't think the writers (or TPTB) were ready to get them back together again, at the beginning of the season.  I mean Leonard made out (and almost had sex with) a woman he had just met, while Priya was in India.  If the night with Raj hadn't happened, and Leonard found out Penny still had feelings for him, do you really think Priya would have mattered to Leonard?  

 

 

 

 

 

What you say is true but Penny knew she messed up and that she hurt Leonard, whether he was in a relationship or not.  I agree tptb wanted them to stay apart a little longer and build up to their reconciliation.  One other issue that was not depicted was how Penny found out about Leonard's break-up with Priya and how she felt about it. If they were going to drag this story out they should have at least mentioned this side of it.

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1 hour ago, Mario D. said:

What you say is true but Penny knew she messed up and that she hurt Leonard, whether he was in a relationship or not.  I agree tptb wanted them to stay apart a little longer and build up to their reconciliation.  One other issue that was not depicted was how Penny found out about Leonard's break-up with Priya and how she felt about it. If they were going to drag this story out they should have at least mentioned this side of it.

That would have been a great time for Penny to come in and give him some comfort, in a friendly way, then the next scene could be her giving the girls the high-five.

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46 minutes ago, SRAM said:

That would have been a great time for Penny to come in and give him some comfort, in a friendly way, then the next scene could be her giving the girls the high-five.

That would have been something great to see.

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