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The Big Bang Theory Seasons 1 - 11 Episode Tournament

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45 minutes ago, April said:

You say that as if I were an objective fact but you don't know what ppl voted for. I voted for non-Shamy episodes as well and I probably would have even voted for a  great Lenny episode if there were any. Heck, I didn't vote for some of the Shamy episodes that ended up in the final 16.

I think it's a logical fallacy to assume that you voted for the "better" episodes while accusing fans of the opposing ship to blindly vote for "lesser" episodes because they happen to have a Shamy milestone in them.

An episode needs to beat other episodes to win this kind of tournament. And ADD and BI winning almost every year means they directly kicked out a lot of episodes. So you are indeed claiming that somehow these are naturally better instead of shipping bias being at play. ( and yes, I know a lot of non-shippers like those episodes but I'm using Shenny here to illustrate the absurdity of this " ppl only vote for this bc of the ship!" claim) But when it happens that a Shamy episode wins it can't be because ppl simply like it more or even think it is actually the better episode.  No, it must be because of some shipping conspiracy cause no one in their right mind would like Shamy episodes??

Now, look, Opening Night and Bow Tie are the only episodes that ever managed to beat ADD and BI. Sure, both are very recent and big Shamy episodes. But both were also very popular with the general audience and were instantly among the best ratings on sites like imdb. At some point you just gotta accept that the general tbbt audience likes these episodes - even , dare I say it?,  deems them "good" - and move on. ON and BT wouldn't have won anything if it weren't for these non-shippers. (I don't know the numbers this year but in a past tournament Tripper explained that the majority of the votes comes from when he makes his announcements on fb and twitter where there aren't that many Shamy shippers hanging out.)

I did not try to set an objective truth or anything, and wasn't trying to make a statement about any particular voter. Maybe I did not put enough IMOs. I was talking about how things may look in the eyes of some, and why reactions coming from some do not mean they are surprised there are people who love Shamy. People who do not like these Shamy milestone episodes see them winning as showing the vote is more Shamy-driven. These people like what you call Shenny episodes so they don't see them winning as Shenny-driven. The question here was were people surprised that people like Shamy, making them make the statements they did. I explained the frame of mind in which one can not be surprised that people love Shamy and make the statementsthat were made. My first response by the way, as you can see, was that people's tastes differ. 

And it's not just Bow Tie and Opening Night (which personally, IMO, JMO, IMHO, I think is better than Bow Tie), again, it's all the stages, which include episodes that were not highly rated on IMDB. 

And here's some emphasis that shows what I meant:

1 hour ago, bfm said:

No, it's saying people were surprised those who love Shamy seemed to be voting based on Shamy milestones only. I'm a Lenny fan and I didn't voted based on Lenny milestones only, if an episode was good for Lenny but there were better episodes (IMO obviuosly) then I'd vote for the better episodes. 

And I'm not talking about the winner episode only but on the winners of every stage this year, so it doesn't really apply to BI and ADD. Anyway, many non Shenny shippers vote for these, including me (and let's say I'm not at all "feeling the Shenny"), because they find them funny and creative, these are not considered episodes that are no better (or are worse) than others in any front other than a shipping one. 

It's referred to "People were surprised/disappointed at how much the results seemed to be affected by Shamy-love"  - again, seemed to be, that is in the eyes of those you think are surprised by people loving Shamy.

Not considered - again in the eyes of those you think are surprised by people loving Shamy.

 

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10 minutes ago, bfm said:

I did not try to set an objective truth or anything, and wasn't trying to make a statement about any particular voter. Maybe I did not put enough IMOs. I was talking about how things may look in the eyes of some, and why reactions coming from some do not mean they are surprised there are people who love Shamy. People who do not like these Shamy milestone episodes see them winning as showing the vote is more Shamy-driven. These people like what you call Shenny episodes so they don't see them winning as Shenny-driven. The question here was were people surprised that people like Shamy, making them make the statements they did. I explained the frame of mind in which one can not be surprised that people love Shamy and make the statementsthat were made. My first response by the way, as you can see, was that people's tastes differ. 

Yeah, but the point is that in the comments these results are always separated as "quality driven" vs. "Shamy driven" which intentionally or not creates the accusation that Shamy episodes are never "good" episodes, or if you're generous, not "good enough".

10 minutes ago, bfm said:

And it's not just Bow Tie and Opening Night (which personally, IMO, JMO, IMHO, I think is better than Bow Tie), again, it's all the stages, which include episodes that were not highly rated on IMDB. 

And those episodes got voted out so I'm not sure what your issue is?  It's not like we had 16 Shamy episodes in the final selection.

As said,  there were a few that made it in where I was also confused how they got there but in the end it's probably simply a result of the show having so many episodes so that the votes in the initial nominations phase are spread so thin that episodes with effectively very few votes make the final cut. At this point if all you Lennies would agree on one super awesome Lenny episode and vote for it accordingly you could probably easily slip it into the final 16.

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For the first time being on this forum I actually didn't submit a ballot this year because quite frankly I was sick of the 'inevitable' comments afterwards when it came to the knockout rounds.

But going off past voting did I pick some episodes that featured a lot of Shamy? Well yes, considering Shamy are my favourite couple and do interest me more than any other then of course naturally I'm going to like episodes that feature them in a positive way differently than others.  Just as I expect Leonard and Penny fans would with their episodes, just as I expect Howardette fans would.  People pick episodes they genuinely like best or just interests them the most and that is no different with anyone, there was absolutely no case of 'I must find enough Shamy episodes here to make sure all my choices are filled' here. 

I always picked what I considered to be the episodes I personally liked the best and not all of them were big Shamy episodes.  The Scavenger Vortex episode, Bakersfield Expedition and the Troll Manifestation for example were ALWAYS on my ballot and none of them are what I consider to be Shamy heavy episodes.  The Veracity Elasticity would have been on my ballot this year had I voted because I genuinely consider it to be the best 'all-round episode' (it features all the cast in a great way) they have done in the last 2 years and one of my all-time favourites.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Edited by Jonny
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6 minutes ago, April said:

Yeah, but the point is that in the comments these results are always separated as "quality driven" vs. "Shamy driven" which intentionally or not creates the accusation that Shamy episodes are never "good" episodes, or if you're generous, not "good enough".

No one made such a generalizing statement. Anyway, this is a different point then your intial "people are surprised that people love Shamy". I presented the alternative to that, now you're just going against that alternative but my point was to show that it exists. I think there are episodes with Shamy milestones that are also very good as a whole, while I also think there are also episodes that have one or two great Lenny scenes but are mediocre as a whole. 

6 minutes ago, April said:

And those episodes got voted out so I'm not sure what your issue is?  It's not like we had 16 Shamy episodes in the final selection.

No not all 16 but many.

Edited by bfm

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Well, it's not like this tournament is the absolute truth ever written about TBBT...it happened this year that less than 25 persons liked BTA better than BIH, no big deal, I would say. Plus, none of us is the objective judge of the "quality" of an episode, exactly for the fact there's no such a thing, we all like different things for different reasons. We don't know for a fact why some liked BTA better than BIH, but even assuming it was because they ALL were shippers, it doesn't mean their are less entitled to their vote. As for the "quality", the enjoyment of an episode means different things for different people, being a shipper doesn't make us less of a fan.

47 minutes ago, Jonny said:

For the first time being on this forum I actually didn't submit a ballot this year because quite frankly I was sick of the 'inevitable' comments afterwards when it came to the knockout rounds.

True dat, LOL!

Edited by mirs1
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Let me put it exaggerated. The last seasons were mostly about Shamy (or more precisely Sheldon, of course). The rest of the group was perceived (by me!) as a decorative accessory. No one should be surprised (from todays point of view) that on this narrowed basis the selection of so-called best episodes inevitably has a one-sided effect.

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9 minutes ago, bfm said:

No one made such a generalizing statement. Anyway, this is a different point then your intial "people are surprised that people love Shamy". I presented the alternative to that, now you're just going against that alternative but my point was to show that it exists. I think there are episodes with Shamy milestones that are also very good as a whole, while I also think there are also episodes that have one or two great Lenny scenes but are mediocre as a whole. 

Okay, first of all, it's not just about your comments .  Second, I said it may happen unintentionally and especially in your case I think it is.

Third, when the initial reaction is always ppl being surprised that other ppl vote for Shamy episodes because they don't like those episodes (or Shamy in general) and think this must be because of some shipping bias or whatever then yes, your argument becomes muddled and comes across like you can't fathom how regular fans simply might like Shamy and their milestone episodes.

Again, might not be intentionally but that's how it comes across, hence the questioning as to why you would be surprised.

Shamy are popular with the general audience and their milestone episodes are often well liked. It's as simple as that.

9 minutes ago, bfm said:

No not all 16 but many.

And again, most likely a result of how thin the votes are spread. When it's only a handful of votes making the final call as to what episode gets into the final 16 then yes, there might be a few voters who prefer Shamy episodes. Or there were a lot of non-shippers that simply voted episodes that amused them in some way that happened to have a Shamy milestone as well so that in the end quite a few more made it in. Or a mix of both, most likely.

32 minutes ago, Jonny said:

I always picked what I considered to be the episodes I personally liked the best and not all of them were big Shamy episodes.  The Scavenger Vortex episode, Bakersfield Expedition and the Troll Manifestation for example were ALWAYS on my ballot and none of them are what I consider to be Shamy heavy episodes.  The Veracity Elasticity would have been on my ballot this year had I voted because I genuinely consider it to be the best 'all-round episode' (it features all the cast in a great way) they have done in the last 2 years and one of my all-time favourites.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

All those episodes are great and I would have been delighted if either of them won the tournament!

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4 minutes ago, April said:

Okay, first of all, it's not just about your comments .  Second, I said it may happen unintentionally and especially in your case I think it is.

Third, when the initial reaction is always ppl being surprised that other ppl vote for Shamy episodes because they don't like those episodes (or Shamy in general) and think this must be because of some shipping bias or whatever then yes, your argument becomes muddled and comes across like you can't fathom how regular fans simply might like Shamy and their milestone episodes.

Again, might not be intentionally but that's how it comes across, hence the questioning as to why you would be surprised.

Shamy are popular with the general audience and their milestone episodes are often well liked. It's as simple as that.

And again, most likely a result of how thin the votes are spread. When it's only a handful of votes making the final call as to what episode gets into the final 16 then yes, there might be a few voters who prefer Shamy episodes. Or there were a lot of non-shippers that simply voted episodes that amused them in some way that happened to have a Shamy milestone as well so that in the end quite a few more made it in. Or a mix of both, most likely.

All those episodes are great and I would have been delighted if either of them won the tournament!

Agree to disagree, I guess. I am not surprised in any way that people love Shamy, and I don't think others here are. 

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Don't kid yourself, I personally know that lots of (if not all) S&P shippers are believing both Bath Item and adhesive ducks are "their" episodes, because they showed the undying love between S&P (LMAO) .

So, I'm wondering when these two episodes won previous years, was there anyone here shouting "why are you Sh enny shippers still lurking here?" "Why are you voting for your ship instead of the quality of an episode?"

LMAO.

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1 minute ago, KripkeRules said:

Don't kid yourself, I personally know that lots of (if not all) S&P shippers are believing both Bath Item and adhesive ducks are "their" episodes, because they showed the undying love between S&P (LMAO) .

So, I'm wondering when these two episodes won previous years, was there anyone here shouting "why are you Sh enny shippers still lurking here?" "Why are you voting for your ship instead of the quality of an episode?"

LMAO.

Again, these episodes are well liked by many non Shenny shippers, including those of us who are very much against Shenny as a romantic pairing.

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3 hours ago, April said:

That is still pretty much saying "people were surprised that people like Shamy", so yeah... lol

I mean, it's an tournament that boils down to "what do you like most" not "what is the super objectively best episode ever" because such a thing doesn't exist.

ADD and BI won this thing almost every year. Both episodes are "Shenny milestones" if you want to put it like that. Let's say I claim those episodes are not better than, say, Scavenger Hunt (which lost against BI this year) and countless other episodes lost against either of these during the years - does that then prove Shenny shipping biases?? lol

Then the "or something" part applies to you. Great we got that sorted.

Scavenger Hunt lost against Bath Item???

Wow, I've seen it all I guess. :no:

Guess Homy shippers didn't vote enough. Bad!!!

Edited by KripkeRules
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11 minutes ago, bfm said:

Again, these episodes are well liked by many non Shenny shippers, including those of us who are very much against Shenny as a romantic pairing.

Can you say with absolute certainty that those episodes in the past years won thanks to "casual fans" vote rather than because of shippers vote? and yet...when it comes to Shamy episodes, it HAS to be shippers vote. Not that I see anything wrong if that is the case, mind you...as I have already said, all reasons are good to vote for an episode.

Edited by mirs1
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2 minutes ago, mirs1 said:

Can you say with absolute certainty that those episodes in the past years won thanks to "casual fans" vote rather than because of shippers vote? and yet...when it comes for shamy episodes, it HAS to be shippers vote. Not that I see anything wrong if that is the case, mind you...

I have seen non Shenny voters, especially those who were accused of being surprised people love Shamy, say that they like these episodes and had voted for them in this and previous "tournaments". 

And again, I didn't say nothing HAS to be any way. I was explaining how people can make certain comments about the results without being "surprised that people love Shamy".

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Just now, bfm said:

I have seen non Shenny voters, especially those who were accused of being surprised people love Shamy, say that they like these episodes and had voted for them in this and previous "tournaments". 

You haven't been here long enough, LOL!

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3 minutes ago, mirs1 said:

You haven't been here long enough, LOL!

I didn't know we were talking about each and every tournament.

Gee, all I did was say people can comment a certain way without being surprised that people love Shamy. 

ETA: What do comments about previous results have to do with this anyway? The discussion was about comments regarding the results this year. If Bath Item and Adhesive Duck won because of Shenny shippers then so be it, it's not relevant to the claim that people are surprised that people love Shamy.

Edited by bfm
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7 minutes ago, bfm said:

I didn't know we were talking about each and every tournament.

Gee, all I did was say people can comment a certain way without being surprised that people love Shamy. 

ETA: What do comments about previous results have to do with this anyway? The discussion was about comments regarding the results this year. If Bath Item and Adhesive Duck won because of Shenny shippers then so be it, it's not relevant to the claim that people are surprised that people love Shamy.

Oh, sorry,  don't consider my answer...I read your post wrong.

 

Edited by mirs1

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24 minutes ago, bfm said:

Again, these episodes are well liked by many non Shenny shippers, including those of us who are very much against Shenny as a romantic pairing.

And I think there are people who love Opening night because of Star Wars, and love Bow Tie because of Mark Hamill. 

So who knows? I just found out that Scavenger Hunt lost against Bath Item, this is news to me.  I as Homy shipper should've voted, bad for me.

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Just now, KripkeRules said:

And I think there are people who love Opening night because of Star Wars, and love Bow Tie because of Mark Hamill. 

So who knows? I just found out that Scavenger Hunt lost against Bath Item, this is news to me.  I as Homy shipper should've voted, bad for me.

Maybe, I don't know. I just made the point that comments that show disappointement or surprise or whatever at the results don't indicate people are surprised people love Shamy. 

I personally consider Opening Night a good episode. I think it's nice and true to the characters and also clever (the tie-in to SW premiere).

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9 minutes ago, bfm said:

Maybe, I don't know. I just made the point that comments that show disappointement or surprise or whatever at the results don't indicate people are surprised people love Shamy.

At this point I'm not even sure why you felt compelled to go down that route cause you're the one clinging to the "surprised" phrase even though none of the comments you quoted actually used that. So I guess that's why we're talking past each other here cause I was making a broader point that you clearly weren't interested in.

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15 minutes ago, April said:

At this point I'm not even sure why you felt compelled to go down that route cause you're the one clinging to the "surprised" phrase even though none of the comments you quoted actually used that. So I guess that's why we're talking past each other here cause I was making a broader point that you clearly weren't interested in.

It started with the surprised phrase, that's what I was commenting on, suggesting the alternative. Other statements I made were again to show the alternative, that it's possible. You went on against the alternative I suggested, but as I said before that wasn't my point. 

And we seem to always be talking past each other, so nothing new here LOL 

 

Edited by bfm

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4 minutes ago, bfm said:

It started with the surprised phrase, that's what I was commenting on, suggesting the alternative. Other statements are made were again to show the alternative. You went on against the alternative I suggested, but as I said before that wasn't my point. 

Look back at the comments, you are the one using the phrase first, hence my confusion. Maybe I should have simply said that in my first response instead of trying to explain my initial point.  lol

4 minutes ago, bfm said:

And we seem to always be talking past each other, so nothing new here LOL

Come on,  that's not true at all. Not "always" anyway!

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I actually don't understand the rules of the "knock out round".

Why Adhesive Duck VS Earworm but not Opening night? Why Bath Item VS Long distance but not Locomotive or Prom?

Was there some draw to set the group,  like they do in World Cup?

I admit that I actually want to see who is gonna win in "Adhesive Duck VS Bath Item". LMAO.

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7 minutes ago, KripkeRules said:

I actually don't understand the rules of the "knock out round".

Why Adhesive Duck VS Earworm but not Opening night? Why Bath Item VS Long distance but not Locomotive or Prom?

Was there some draw to set the group,  like they do in World Cup?

Basically it's like this:

First, the nomination round = everyone nominates their favourites and the best 16 enter the knock out round. The knock out round is sorted according to the number of votes each episode got in the nomination round, i.e. the one with the most votes is "1", the one after "2" and so on down to "16"

Then in the knock out round episodes are facing off in a pattern where the upper half of the list is matched with the lower half:

1 vs 9, 2 vs 10, 3 vs 11, 4 vs 12 etc etc.

And this pattern continues until the end.

Hope that helps.

7 minutes ago, KripkeRules said:

I admit that I actually want to see who is gonna win in "Adhesive Duck VS Bath Item". LMAO.

@Tripper once mentioned that one time the system was messing up the matches and ADD faced off BI very early on. I think BI won that one but I'm not sure.

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55 minutes ago, April said:

Look back at the comments, you are the one using the phrase first, hence my confusion. Maybe I should have simply said that in my first response instead of trying to explain my initial point.  lol

Come on,  that's not true at all. Not "always" anyway!

Actually Die Zimticke said "Why is it so hard to believe that Shamy fans exist and are willing to come out and vote for that ep?" and you responded "Right? People like Shamy, big shocker!" that is what I responded to. 

And it is true a lot of times haha it's many times either that or we agree generally but don't realize it because we keep discussing some detail over and over   

Edited by bfm

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24 minutes ago, bfm said:

Actually Die Zimticke said "Why is it so hard to believe that Shamy fans exist and are willing to come out and vote for that ep?" and you responded "Right? People like Shamy, big shocker!" that is what I responded to. 

Yeah, and as you see no one used the word "surprise" except you and then things went weird. haha

Quote

And it is true a lot of times haha it's many times either that or we agree generally but don't realize it because we keep discussing some detail over and over   

Hey, sometimes I just have time to kill and want to talk about nothing! lol

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