episodes 1212 'The Propagation Proposition' (January 10)

[Die Zimtzicke]

19 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

Yeah it seems Penny is always the bad wolf. And people critique her flaws and short comings in her relationship with Leonard. But it seems Leonard gets off scott free from some fans. He only cheated on her, and lied about it for 2 years apparently. But I Won't go down that road again. We can agree or disagree about the quality of the storytelling and writing in regards to the whole baby topic. But Penny has no obligation to give Leonard a child. This idea she has to change her mind. She doesen't. She has no obligation too. Now it is up to Leonard to decide if he is okay with that, and nothing seems to suggest he is not. First it seems we were annoyed Penny has a problem with Leonard wanting to donate his Sperm. As she never consulted with Leonard. Now the sense I Am getting is oh she should be having a say. As it is I Don't think this story arch is over. 

I hope they get out of it as fast as they can in the easiest way they can because this story arc sucks. And personally I don't see it's true that Penny is always the bad wolf. There are fans who adore her and still talk about what a good friend she is, how street smart she is, how kind she is...even after she decided to tell Leonard she doesn't want kids without discussing it at all. Leonard has taken as much crap as Penny has in my opinion, maybe more. I find him much more likeable than her and always have. I didn't like her at first because of her "I'm so hot with my bleached blond hair and great body that I should be able to get anything I want with it" and when that kind of thing comes up again in later seasons it drives me nuts.  And every so often the powers that be trot it out again. They should have stopped it long ago if they truly wanted everyone to like her. But no, she's still snarky and arrogant and cold whenever she wants to be.  The writers must be crazy because they just don't seem to see this. In this ep I found her way snarkier and indifferent than I wanted her to see her be.

 

18 hours ago, Chrismo said:

Like you I really don’t care about the Raj storyline and reviewers liking it but I digress. I was able to handle Sheldon in the Lenny storyline but to me Lenny Zack and Marissa were the only ones needed. I’m not sure it would of made the episode better for you but it couldn’t of made it worse 

I still think the Raj and Anu storyline was the best one and most interesting. The others were either not needed or a hot mess. Amy and Sheldon were not needed. Howard and Bernie are just there to redirect Raj. The Lenny storyline was nuts.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Die Zimtzicke

[joyceraye]

6 hours ago, Zephon75 said:

You have covered a lot of the episode and raised some interesting points.

Well, I thought this episode was awful, I had no interest in the Raj/Anu plot but that wasn't the reason I think the episode was awful. First, we had that line from Amy after the got the champagne where she says she's happily married but she will watch. Implying that Penny or Bernadette would do something for the guy who gave it to them. When Penny says they aren't going to do anything, Bernadette makes a dig at Penny which wasn't remotely funny.

Aren't these the sort of sleazey jokes women make between one another when they've had one or two glassfuls ? I'm afraid in my life they've been normal. When I was their age, anyway.

Also, Zack says he sold his company, but the company was never his, it was his father's and he and his sister where vps.

It seemed from his offer of a job to Penny last year that he had taken it over and was running it. I too wondered about that. Perhaps he bought the family out, or his father had made it over to Zack and his sister and they each had a share when it was sold. We don't know what happened over the years.

Although even in this abomination of an episode there were some nice scenes for Lenny like after Penny asked Leonard was he jealous and he says absolutely not he should be jealous of me because I have you. Penny reaction clearly showed she liked that answer. And then Leonard not getting what Penny was implying was adorable.

He got it. He was carrying on with the joke, extending the metaphor. At least that's how I took it.

As for the car journey with Sheldon and his reaction every time Leonard said something positive about himself. Was annoying just because Sheldon doesn't think so doesn't make him right if anything it made him look like a jerk.

This is typical of him when he's finding it difficult not to say anything. It was even better than the Colonel Williams Star Trek one. Sheldon was probably under strict marital instructions to keep his opinions to himself and his trap shut and let Leonard express himself. Jim is so clever with his facial expressions. He was brilliant this time.

The boat scene was well cute and very very weird, Penny's reaction after he said he didn't know what to say. Pretty much gave away that she didn't want him to do it. Then, of course, we got the girls talking about it and Penny saying they had a fight over it. And Leonard said too if she doesn't want his baby why shouldn't some else be able to, that was actually surprising to hear that Leonard would say that to her.

 I was surprised too. Leonard has let his feelings be known for once, and forcibly. They really should be seeing Dr Gallo or somebody before Beverly weighs in.

I will say this Sheldon actually had a point about the emotional toll it could have of them.

No doubt he knew it was too important a matter to be shrugged off with a snarky line.When he's serious he can stun ! Millions of viewers must have gone,  'That came from Sheldon ? How ?'  I suppose it's because he's got a wife now and he knows they care about what their husbands feel. Also, he's known Penny a long time and that she is ultimately both nurturing and capable of a long view. He watches different movies these days with Amy and has probably seen TV series like Long Lost Family and heard podcasts with older men regretting their she-got-pregnant-he-got-lost, sowing-wild-oats youth.  His logic that there are many nice, intelligent men in the world who don't have to become sperm donors, but that there are many potential sperm donors out there is irrefutable. I'm glad Leonard felt he could tell Sheldon about it. 

The last conversation between Leonard and Penny, has Leonard telling Penny he won't do it if she doesn't want him too. Then Penny makes the gesture implying he can do it if he wants. Yet she doesn't know if she's okay with it. But because she didn't give him a say when she told him she didn't want kids. She thinks she doesn't have to have a say in this. Then, of course, we where left not knowing what he was actually going to do which was a crappy thing to do.

 

At the risk of being thought logical I'll point out a couple of things. IF the writers remember what they say, money is going to change hands. Zack said they didn't want a stranger's sperm. Two very very serious matters.  

If there's an ounce of sense anywhere they'll be using an attorney, not Sheldon, for drawing up a proper, legally binding and enforceable contract. They'll go to a reputable clinic or doctor ( whose nurse we'll have seen before, of course )  where there'll be a counsellor who'll discuss with both couples their intentions and the implications of AID before they go ahead. There'll be a lot of  exploration of feelings and thoughts when they're all fully informed. It will give the writers and their viewers much scope for decision-making and the opportunity for mind-changing.

So all in all I thought the episode was just weird and a load of bollocks.

Pun intended ?

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by joyceraye

[Jonny]

15 hours ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I still think the Raj and Anu storyline was the best one and most interesting. 

 

Same and I am happy to see them not ending the relationship entirely just going back few steps (the ones they rushed past).

I wouldn't rule out an end of season ceremony of some kind, but if Raj and Anu don't get married I wouldn't be too upset about it, they can save it for a flash forward time jump to know that they did end up together.

[bfm]

16 minutes ago, Jonny said:

Same and I am happy to see them not ending the relationship entirely just going back few steps (the ones they rushed past).

I wouldn't rule out an end of season ceremony of some kind, but if Raj and Anu don't get married I wouldn't be too upset about it, they can save it for a flash forward time jump to know that they did end up together.

Yeah I don't have to see Raj married. A relationship with good potential is enough for me.

[Chrismo]

The Raj and Anu while the better storyline lm having a hard time caring about made no sense just like last weeks. Someone must been a “ Love Actually “ fan to come up with the  cue cards.  While not a big Raj fan I don’t see him as the one being totally wrong with the camera “spying”. Why was it okay for her to be hugging the ex boyfriend? If let’s say Emily came over to pick up something  left and gave Raj a hug how would Anu  have taken it? The best scene in their storyline was him talking to his father. I also see little chemistry between the two. Raj had way more chemistry with Emily.

[chucky]

50 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

The best scene in their storyline was him talking to his father.

Totally agree! It's always good when Raj's dad is there, just like Mary!

Edited January 12, 2019 by chucky

[bfm]

50 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

The Raj and Anu while the better storyline lm having a hard time caring about made no sense just like last weeks. Someone must been a “ Love Actually “ fan to come up with the  cue cards.  While not a big Raj fan I don’t see him as the one being totally wrong with the camera “spying”. Why was it okay for her to be hugging the ex boyfriend? If let’s say Emily came over to pick up something  left and gave Raj a hug how would Anu  have taken it? The best scene in their storyline was him talking to his father. I also see little chemistry between the two. Raj had way more chemistry with Emily.

I can see what you mean. With Anu and Raj many times I feel the text is cute but I just don't feel it. Something about their characters doesn't exactly mesh to me, at least not for now. And it was weird that Anu's ex wasn't brought up... 

[chucky]

4 hours ago, bfm said:

I can see what you mean. With Anu and Raj many times I feel the text is cute but I just don't feel it. Something about their characters doesn't exactly mesh to me, at least not for now. And it was weird that Anu's ex wasn't brought up... 

Yeah, I don't get overjoyed with them, but then I'm only overjoyed with Lenny! They seem strained in their relationship. I believe Howard was right about the ending of the engagement!

Edited January 12, 2019 by chucky

[SRAM]

3 hours ago, Chrismo said:

 The best scene in their storyline was him talking to his father. I also see little chemistry between the two. Raj had way more chemistry with Emily.

That is the way I feel too.  Raj and his father’s conversation was nice, but I just don’t feel any chemistry between Raj and Anu.  Anu feels like a last minute introduction to try and give someone to Raj before the show ends and their relationship therefore seems forced to me.  I still think it would have been better if he got back with one of his previous girlfriends (or Missy) and just became a better boyfriend to them showing that he had changed and the ending of the show it looked like the relationship would be successful.

[chucky]

34 minutes ago, SRAM said:

That is the way I feel too.  Raj and his father’s conversation was nice, but I just don’t feel any chemistry between Raj and Anu.  Anu feels like a last minute introduction to try and give someone to Raj before the show ends and their relationship therefore seems forced to me.  I still think it would have been better if he got back with one of his previous girlfriends (or Missy) and just became a better boyfriend to them showing that he had changed and the ending of the show it looked like the relationship would be successful.

Yeah, Raj/Anu is just blah! Missy would be better. Sheldon's reaction and interacting with the couple could be amusing!

[joyceraye]

5 hours ago, Chrismo said:

The Raj and Anu while the better storyline lm having a hard time caring about made no sense just like last weeks. Someone must been a “ Love Actually “ fan to come up with the  cue cards.  While not a big Raj fan I don’t see him as the one being totally wrong with the camera “spying”. Why was it okay for her to be hugging the ex boyfriend? If let’s say Emily came over to pick up something  left and gave Raj a hug how would Anu  have taken it? The best scene in their storyline was him talking to his father. I also see little chemistry between the two. Raj had way more chemistry with Emily.

I don't see the doorcam as spying in the first place. The more people who can see who's hanging round my door the better. A burglar was literally caught that way once. The detective recognised him from a description the neighbour kid gave. The app is only an extra string to the neighbourhood watch's bow. What Raj told his father was right. 

 There's something suspicious to me about Anu's touchiness re the ex IMHO. She's not over him. If she threw him out because he was a mooch and a leech, why is she in his arms before he's even got through the front door ? It must be months since he lived there, so why is he only now picking up his bits and pieces ? Did he bring a dinner with him ? If not, why didn't he leave the full bags in his car ?

Why have the directors given RAnaj so little chemistry so far ? I thought they seemed a bit better with that this week, actually. They were OK in the Halloween episode too. And what's with 'I hardly know you' anyway ? They've been together for months now. 

The whole bloomin' thing is a jumble. Too many questions raised in a short time.

[DaisyJane]

The scene at the bar was completely inoffensive, and the exchange between Amy and Zach was quite humorous. I didn't see any insinuation on Penny's part that she settled for Leonard, and the fact that Penny works harder to maintain her appearance is well-established and readily mentioned. There was no superiority or coldness as mentioned on here, even in the face of Amy's socially inept behavior (which I found humorous because, well, it's a sitcom and doesn't need to be taken that seriously). 

I'm surprised by the retcon, at least on the forum, that Leonard has desperately wanted children and that it was clearly agreed upon before his and Penny's impromptu wedding, when in fact it was only mentioned briefly as a very abstract, far off idea. Since then, Penny and Leonard have settled into a happy marriage, had great careers, and been generally happy with their lives. The realization that a child could disrupt that, and thus make the option less appealing, is very reasonable and true to life. I have several friends and relatives who are grappling with that reality now, and I don't think the party not wanting a/another child was manipulative, selfish, or malicious from changing their mind on the issue as reality set in. Even now, Leonard really only wants to donate out of pride and flattery, knowing that the couple he's donating to are not likely capable of managing the workload of raising a child, and came off as very whiny in his realizations that life wasn't fair (obviously) and that a guy working in the private sector has a better chance at wealth than someone in academia (also obvious). 

That said, I do find it sad that Leonard and Penny are the ones not looking to have babies as they are clearly the most-suited for the job. Amy herself equated 'having Sheldon' in the same breath as Bernadette having two toddlers, and she is spot on in that remark as he remains as infantile, hateful, and pathetic as he's always been, while she puts up with and enables the behavior. There's no joy that would come from having those two as parents. Meanwhile, Leonard and Penny are both warm, steadfast, and nurturing in their interactions with others. So yeah...that last scene left me with a sense of loss, and a deep disdain for the writers for not matching the characters with the believable courses that their lives would take. 

[Die Zimtzicke]

1 hour ago, DaisyJane said:

Amy herself equated 'having Sheldon' in the same breath as Bernadette having two toddlers, and she is spot on in that remark as he remains as infantile, hateful, and pathetic as he's always been, while she puts up with and enables the behavior.

I liked your post because it's so well written and I can see where you're coming from but I find it sad that you think being infantile has to mean you are hateful and pathetic. Amy seems to find him a lot of work to adjust to living with, but it's something she chose willingly and is happy with in the grand scheme of things. I would also hope the same for Bernie. Perhaps she didn't choose as willingly, but she'd adjusting to having two children and I'm sure she wouldn't wish for her old life back.

[DaisyJane]

16 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

I liked your post because it's so well written and I can see where you're coming from but I find it sad that you think being infantile has to mean you are hateful and pathetic. 

I don't, I listed these as individual personality traits that Sheldon possesses. Someone can certainly be infantile without being hateful or pathetic, or hateful without being pathetic and infantile (Priya is someone I'd describe in that particular way). Sheldon, however, is all of the above. 

22 minutes ago, Die Zimtzicke said:

Amy seems to find him a lot of work to adjust to living with, but it's something she chose willingly and is happy with in the grand scheme of things. I would also hope the same for Bernie. Perhaps she didn't choose as willingly, but she'd adjusting to having two children and I'm sure she wouldn't wish for her old life back.

I don't disagree with either of those sentiments and did not mean to insinuate that Bernadette would wish her children away. That said, the notion that Amy chose to be in a situation where her marriage more closely mirrors her friend's experience raising two under two than it does any of her friends' marriages is sad and unfortunate IMO. Sadder is the notion that the writers have decided they are a suitable couple to raise children, despite Sheldon being so hateful and Amy being so permissive. It would be a miserable situation for everyone involved, while Leonard and Penny, based on the personas established throughout the course of the show, would make very loving and capable parents. 

[JohnPhD]

Well, I enjoyed this episode (that I just now managed to watch) apart from the Raj & Anu scenes, since I don't find Raj a character I can care about. This was the first ep since I can't remember when that was free from Shamy, and what sweet relief that was. The ladies' night (I'm glad they're calling it that now) dialogue was pretty funny, and the writers seem to have remembered how to write Bernadette.

I saw the main story as Penny struggling with her feelings over the proposed sperm donation. Not for the first time, she hasn't been able to sort out how she feels and tell Leonard. P was obviously tense as hell from the first suggestion. KC acts that brilliantly - I don't want P to be always cheerful, I like to see the depth KC can give her. Just so long as the sich gets resolved right in due course.

[joyceraye]

On 1/12/2019 at 9:13 PM, DaisyJane said:

There's no joy that would come from having those two as parents.

I've imagined that when they move into a house they'll employ a retired nanny to look after it and them. In practice she'll be making sure they bring up a child/ children properly so that they'll enjoy having a daddy who plays with trains and toys.

[chucky]

On 1/12/2019 at 3:13 PM, DaisyJane said:

There's no joy that would come from having those two as parents.

I can see Sheldon following Beverly's book on raising children!